Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

I have also a DM DLX (bridge) in the... neck position of another guitar: it sounds good and is a perfect companion for the mid pickup, which is... a regular P90. That said, the DLX has its own tone: it doesn't sound like a P90. And it needs a no load tone pot in my guitar. Was too muddy with two 500k controls.

So the DLX doesn't overwhelm the regular P90 output wise?

The Duncans sounded like CRAP when I first got the guitar, after inspection I found that all the pots measured about 400k. That made the pickups respond like the tone control was turned all the way down all the time. Changing everything to actual, measured 500k did wonders. You wouldn't think that 20% would be night and day, but it was.

Mostly what I'm looking for is to preserve that single coil flavor those P90s have, i.e. nice, bright thwack on the low strings and some zap on the high strings. I really couldn't care less if it sounds "authentically vintage" because those Duncans sure don't, and they are fine if it weren't for the hum. I definitely dont want to end up with a bridge pup that sounds anything like a strat bridge though.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

So the DLX doesn't overwhelm the regular P90 output wise?

The DLX exhibits a solid 18k vs 9k for the P90 BUT the inductance of the P90 is actually higher: 6.73H vs 5.15H for the DLX. Consequence: the DLX is cleaner sounding and a tad less powerful. Furthermore, the magnetic field is obviously stronger in the P90. Last but not least, I've set the DLX far from the strings.

It's not the first time that I mount a bridge PU in neck position: until now, it has always worked (I'd avoid that with a X2N, though).

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

I think what you are hearing there is distance from the strings, and maybe the mid scoop in the DLX. The large ceramic in the DLX+ would be stronger than the alnico in a normal P90, and the output as listed is almost like a Super Distortion in terms of voltage, which is around half again what a normal P90 puts out, a tad more actually. Henries is not output, if it were, you could hook an unpowered guitar amp choke or transformer up to a speaker and plug your guitar in. Resistance is not output either, AC voltage is.

Distance from the strings makes a HUGE difference in output. It is interesting to know that backing the DLX off that far can make it mix with a normal 90.

I had a conversation with Eric at DiMarzio today about that stuff, he said that the DLX+ sounds more like a Steve's Special than anything else. I guess the only things they have that sound similar to an actual P90 are the virtual P90 and the older DLX, which is discontinued but apparently a few places still have them.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

I think what you are hearing there is distance from the strings, and maybe the mid scoop in the DLX. The large ceramic in the DLX+ would be stronger than the alnico in a normal P90, and the output as listed is almost like a Super Distortion in terms of voltage, which is around half again what a normal P90 puts out, a tad more actually. Henries is not output, if it were, you could hook an unpowered guitar amp choke or transformer up to a speaker and plug your guitar in. Resistance is not output either, AC voltage is.

I've not said that Henries = output.

I've mentioned the inductance because it 's one of the two parms which define the location of a resonant frequency and therefore, the level of mids. And IME, mids are one of the things which give the "sensation" of output.

AFAIK, yes, the DLX has a ceramic magnet, supposed to be stronger than the alnico 5 mags of my P90. That said, the high resistance of the DLX necessarily flattens its curve (by giving a lower Q factor) and its humbucker structure necessarily implies some phase cancellation (while its magnetic circuit is tamed by the Eddie currents due to its baseplate), resulting in a lesser dynamic and more compression than those of a SC.

If we add all these factors to each others, we'll know why a regular P90 can appear as stronger than a DLX.

That said, you're right, the DLX is far from the strings and it largely explains my experience too (while it proves the DLX to be a versatile pickup): in this position and with these settings, il delivers only 276mv in the axe where I've put it, while the P90 Tone Zone that I've mounted in bridge position delivers a strong 510mv (I like to set my bridge HB's close to the strings).

Footnotes:

-About AC levels: those that I mention have been measured through the output jack with a multimeter.

-To illustrate my explanations above: below are two screenshots with actual resonant frequencies measured from my guitars. First picture = P90 ToneZone in white, DLX in blue and regular P90 in green through two 500k pots. In this case, the DLX is the stronger. 2d pic= same pickups with a no load tone pot. It opens the door to the dynamic of the single coil and to its narrower resonant peak (higher Q factor), giving more output @ resonant frequency to the P90.

-About my contributions here: please, don't believe that I'm a petty person who gives lessons to seasoned members. I'm just a geek who tries to share his findings (and I know the psychology of online forums: I'm moderator for a luthier / pickup maker in my country. It's not a good idea for me to write here sentencious explanations while I'm apparently a beginner with a handful of posts. LOL). Thx for your understanding! :cool2:

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

I'm curious what you are using to get those resonant frequency graphs? Are they normalized for each pickup?

Also, just to be clear, are we talking about the old DLX model or the DLX+?

It is interesting to see the characteristic "noiseless single" notch there for the DLX (you can see the same notch all over at Scott Lawing's Zexcoil site), which makes me think we're talking about the old DLX model, not a DLX+. The DLX is an old style noiseless single, the DLX+ is a P90 sized bucker, and I'd expect it to have that notch basically gone, as does the Tone Zone in P90 form factor.

I wouldn't expect a DLX to be louder than a P90 necessarily, while I would expect the DLX+ to smoke the hell out of a P90, unless it was far from the strings.

The DLX was their first attempt at a noiseless P90, same generation as the old HS single series, and with all the inherent flaws (flaws which still exist in most companies' noiseless pickups). It was followed up on by the Virtual P90 years later, which is supposedly closer to the mark but still not quite there.

The DLX + is a hot as hell humbucker in a P90 space, which they claim is basically a Steve's Special in P90 form factor, and their eq chart and output would suggest it lies along those lines.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

For 9 years, I do frequency graphs with home made low impedance "exciter coils" placed above each pickup, " a la Helmuth Lemme". See the fig. 11 there: http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

I often normalize my measurements but not necessarily when I compare PU's (and I don't always use the same hardware/ softwares).

I see what you mean about the notch. That said, IME, this notch can be produced by many humbucker: it depends on the specs of each coil and even on the position of the exciter above the coils (!). In this case, the "notched" spectrum is in fact due to the TZ.:scratchch
I guess it illustrates the "dual resonance" concept patented by DM.

And yes, I was talking about the DLX "PLUS" (set far from the strings, as we said). My lazyness made me imprecise. Sorry!

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

Go to zexcoil.com if you want to see interesting things about "the notch."

Also very interesting and cool pickups there.

 

[dr. ad]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

and that, my friends, is how you hijack a thread

 

[freefrog]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

Go to zexcoil.com if you want to see interesting things about "the notch."

Also very interesting and cool pickups there.

I agree: I've already discussed by emails with Scott Lawing and his noiseless designs are exciting.

and that, my friends, is how you hijack a thread

Our discussions has included testimonials, advices and tech pictures about P90 sized humbuckers: DM DLX+ and ToneZone, Kinman P90Hx.

These info's answer more or less directly to the tittle of this topic. It's not exactly what I'd call hijacking.

But if the OP feels my answers like hijacking: C Squared, I'm sorry.

 

[dr. ad]

Re: Noiseless P90s? What options are there?

just jokes.
as you say, it is an interesting read