PFDarkside
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Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Hope it sounds killer when you have it all built up.
Hope it sounds killer when you have it all built up.
Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
- Thread starter MetalManiac
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Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
the arm threads into the block so the slight gap at the top plate doesnt bother me. looks like a well machined bridge but they could have polished it up a little, looks like there is gunk under the saddle intonation screws
the arm threads into the block so the slight gap at the top plate doesnt bother me. looks like a well machined bridge but they could have polished it up a little, looks like there is gunk under the saddle intonation screws
frostopsy
New member
Nostalgic Distortion
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
The tonal properties of different metals for bridge saddles, frets, nuts, Etc. was explained to me like this...
BRASS- more midrange than its typical counterparts & "more sustain"
ALUMINUM- scooped compared to it's typical counterparts & "more sustain"
TITANIUM- sounds almost exactly like it's typical counterparts but louder and you guessed it, "MORE SUSTAIN"
However I don't know if there's a lick of truth to any of this, it could be a complete pile of B.S.???
I've got some Titanium bridge saddles & a Titanium nut on one of my L.P.'s. They weren't really something that I sought out, the nut was a free replacement from Gibson because some genius in R&D thought brass was a good idea for a ZFN in 2015 & the saddles were already on a bridge that I got a good deal on. Personally I don't notice a great deal of difference in tone after replacing either of these parts but it is a heck of a lot more durable!!!
A buddy of mine bought the same TOM assembly's as I did after playing mine but I don't think tone was much of a factor? He's just one of those sweaty dudes who has a PH issue & rots his bridges all to hell with his gross hands, LOL!!!!
The tonal properties of different metals for bridge saddles, frets, nuts, Etc. was explained to me like this...
BRASS- more midrange than its typical counterparts & "more sustain"
ALUMINUM- scooped compared to it's typical counterparts & "more sustain"
TITANIUM- sounds almost exactly like it's typical counterparts but louder and you guessed it, "MORE SUSTAIN"
However I don't know if there's a lick of truth to any of this, it could be a complete pile of B.S.???
I've got some Titanium bridge saddles & a Titanium nut on one of my L.P.'s. They weren't really something that I sought out, the nut was a free replacement from Gibson because some genius in R&D thought brass was a good idea for a ZFN in 2015 & the saddles were already on a bridge that I got a good deal on. Personally I don't notice a great deal of difference in tone after replacing either of these parts but it is a heck of a lot more durable!!!
A buddy of mine bought the same TOM assembly's as I did after playing mine but I don't think tone was much of a factor? He's just one of those sweaty dudes who has a PH issue & rots his bridges all to hell with his gross hands, LOL!!!!
MetalManiac
Li'l Junior Member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Actually, total cost of this new was 625.00,not 1000.00, or so the seller claims. ATM, i just cannpt decide which Strat to install it in- I'm leaning towards the one that's the super lightweight one to maximize the weight factor.
Actually, total cost of this new was 625.00,not 1000.00, or so the seller claims. ATM, i just cannpt decide which Strat to install it in- I'm leaning towards the one that's the super lightweight one to maximize the weight factor.
darthphineas
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
I've been fiddling with Ti parts for several years now. it was a matter of dipping in the toes to see if the water was warm, due mainly to reading about the very same stigma by some in this thread. and aside from going at it a piece at a time to not invest too much dough at once, it allowed me to get an idea of how each part has an impact. it might have cost a little more than just buying a complete Ti rig all at once, but the journey was worth it.
part of what I do means that I frequently talk to the people that make the stuff. Floyd Rose, for example, uses TiSonix (out there in Cali). they use a military grade titanium of the same type used for the SR71. there are some places that use a medical grade, which might be better than a sharp stick in the eye, but is not always considered as good - I do have some of both. oddly, one of FR's competitors farms out their Ti production, so who knows what sort of consistency is going on there (my attempts to ask about their grade of Ti was not answered).
so yeah, there are even "levels" of Ti than can be used. sort of like something I read about one place using naval brass for part. prior to that even coming out, I already heard from a company that was approached to manufacture those parts for that company. the dude was more interested in using the phrase "naval brass" than listening when being told that is not as strong as the common brass used for sustain blocks.
when using billet titanium, for example, there is a denser molecular structure. that means the energy can transmit more efficiently. in the case of titanium, it's also a more acoustically transparent material, so it's more clear sounding. or rather, the titanium gets out of the way of everything else going on, more so than brass or aluminum or steel or pot metal. as such, it's common considered to "brighten" an instrument. it seems as if it's actually allowing those existing qualities to come through in a way that was being dampened by the previous hardware.
I've been fiddling with Ti parts for several years now. it was a matter of dipping in the toes to see if the water was warm, due mainly to reading about the very same stigma by some in this thread. and aside from going at it a piece at a time to not invest too much dough at once, it allowed me to get an idea of how each part has an impact. it might have cost a little more than just buying a complete Ti rig all at once, but the journey was worth it.
part of what I do means that I frequently talk to the people that make the stuff. Floyd Rose, for example, uses TiSonix (out there in Cali). they use a military grade titanium of the same type used for the SR71. there are some places that use a medical grade, which might be better than a sharp stick in the eye, but is not always considered as good - I do have some of both. oddly, one of FR's competitors farms out their Ti production, so who knows what sort of consistency is going on there (my attempts to ask about their grade of Ti was not answered).
so yeah, there are even "levels" of Ti than can be used. sort of like something I read about one place using naval brass for part. prior to that even coming out, I already heard from a company that was approached to manufacture those parts for that company. the dude was more interested in using the phrase "naval brass" than listening when being told that is not as strong as the common brass used for sustain blocks.
when using billet titanium, for example, there is a denser molecular structure. that means the energy can transmit more efficiently. in the case of titanium, it's also a more acoustically transparent material, so it's more clear sounding. or rather, the titanium gets out of the way of everything else going on, more so than brass or aluminum or steel or pot metal. as such, it's common considered to "brighten" an instrument. it seems as if it's actually allowing those existing qualities to come through in a way that was being dampened by the previous hardware.
MetalManiac
Li'l Junior Member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Found this explanation from a pretty brilliant engineer in reference to the Strat block only. Sounds about right to me;
QUOTE;
Personally, I think most of the perceived change in tonal character achieved through changing the material the "sustain" block is made of is due largely to the power of suggestion. Spend $150 on a titanium block, and you're going to do your best to convince yourself that it's better somehow. Understand, I'm not saying that it doesn't make a difference, only that its influence is probably overrated.
Having said that, there are some arguments that make sense, depending on the effect you're trying to achieve. Because different metals have different hardnesses and densities (among other characteristics), they respond differently to stress.
Metal Hardness Density
Titanium 334 4.43
Steel 130 7.75
Brass 60 8.5
Aluminum 160 2.7
Zinc 45 7.1
Disregarding the static tension a string imposes on its mounting points, the stress on those points is mainly vibration. The vibration of the string(s) is what we want to hear, so what effect is the mounting point's properties going to have on that?
Since the object of the exercise is to hear the strings vibrate, anything that absorbs those vibrations could be thought to be detrimental. So, you would want your mounting point to have a lot of mass so that inertia will tend to hold that point still. Going by that, the block materials that would make sense for increased sustain would fall in this order, from longest to shortest
Brass
Steel
Zinc
Titanium
Aluminum
For increased frequency response, you would want something harder. The block materials that would make sense for that would fall in this order, from highest to lowest
Titanium
Aluminum
Steel
Brass
Zinc
All things considered, steel is probably the best material overall for general purposes. Titanium will be brighter, but you'll lose sustain. Brass would have better sustain, but you'd lose frequency response. Aluminum and zinc don't appear to be particularly good at anything for our purposes, although from a manufacturing standpoint they're far and away the easiest/cheapest to produce.
It's telling that regardless of the numbers, aluminum and zinc are the most common materials used. Why? Cost is certainly a factor. Aluminum and zinc are fairly inexpensive just as raw materials, but so is steel. However, both the former are easily die cast, which eliminates a LOT of machining. That saves time and tools, which are both expensive.
Keeping in mind that all of the materials mentioned are going to be mounted to wood, which is considerably softer and less dense than metal, and that all the considerations have to do with vibration absorption, I think the reality is that when it comes to sustain blocks the difference the material makes is not prominent enough to justify anything exotic.
..... that titanium is largely a waste of money on a guitar. It's not a bad metal at all, and is actually better than what the OEMs use (die cast zinc), but it's not as good as milled steel or brass. You actually want some mass to the bridge assembly, so it doesn't absorb vibrations. Titanium will give you less of that than even the zinc. You also want hardness, and titanium is harder than zinc, but softer than brass or steel. So, if you want better sustain and frequency response (articulation), you want either a brass or steel sustaim block. Brass might a slight edge in sustain, steel might have a slight edge in frequency response, but they'd be comparable.
Then, you want a hardened baseplate so it doesn't wear at the pivot points, and milled saddles rather than those flimsy roll-formed pieces of crap Fender uses. "But they have tone!!!" No, they don't. They eat tone, and what's left is what people think is good.
In utopia, when you start a string vibrating, it never stops and it generates harmonics all the way up past the limits of human hearing. In reality, a dozen or so things are preventing that from happening. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to minimize the influence of all those things that are trying to eat harmonics and make the string stop vibrating. So, fewer joints, hard anchors and lotsa mass. That includes the neck joint - that's like a hinge on the whole assembly. You want that to be nice and tight. That's why I've been putting threaded inserts and machine screws in for years. It's also (one of the reasons) why I don't use Floyds. Too many joints.
You can always filter out frequencies you don't want with either the guitar's tone controls, the sfx's, the amp's, the PA or recording EQ, etc. You can't add them in if they're missing because the guitar itself is eating them at birth.
For increased frequency response, you would want something harder. The block materials that would make sense for that would fall in this order, from highest to lowest
Titanium
Aluminum
Steel
Brass
Zinc
then...
..... that titanium is largely a waste of money on a guitar. It's not a bad metal at all, and is actually better than what the OEMs use (die cast zinc), but it's not as good as milled steel or brass. You actually want some mass to the bridge assembly, so it doesn't absorb vibrations. Titanium will give you less of that than even the zinc. You also want hardness, and titanium is harder than zinc, but softer than brass or steel
[When I wrote that first bit I confused Titanium's strength-to-weight ratio with hardness. It's actually somewhat flexible, which among other things is what makes it desirable for air/space craft. You can make a fairly strong part that weighs less and won't crack or work harden as easily under stress, which is something neither steel nor aluminum is good at. But, being somewhat springy (relatively speaking) means it'll absorb vibration more than steel or aluminum, which are more brittle. It'll deform and bounce back, which would have a deadening effect.
Keep in mind we're talking relative numbers here. Titanium is far from "springy", but compared to untreated steel or aluminum it is. Still, small things matter when we're talking about the small vibrations you see in a musical instrument.]
Found this explanation from a pretty brilliant engineer in reference to the Strat block only. Sounds about right to me;
QUOTE;
Personally, I think most of the perceived change in tonal character achieved through changing the material the "sustain" block is made of is due largely to the power of suggestion. Spend $150 on a titanium block, and you're going to do your best to convince yourself that it's better somehow. Understand, I'm not saying that it doesn't make a difference, only that its influence is probably overrated.
Having said that, there are some arguments that make sense, depending on the effect you're trying to achieve. Because different metals have different hardnesses and densities (among other characteristics), they respond differently to stress.
Metal Hardness Density
Titanium 334 4.43
Steel 130 7.75
Brass 60 8.5
Aluminum 160 2.7
Zinc 45 7.1
Disregarding the static tension a string imposes on its mounting points, the stress on those points is mainly vibration. The vibration of the string(s) is what we want to hear, so what effect is the mounting point's properties going to have on that?
Since the object of the exercise is to hear the strings vibrate, anything that absorbs those vibrations could be thought to be detrimental. So, you would want your mounting point to have a lot of mass so that inertia will tend to hold that point still. Going by that, the block materials that would make sense for increased sustain would fall in this order, from longest to shortest
Brass
Steel
Zinc
Titanium
Aluminum
For increased frequency response, you would want something harder. The block materials that would make sense for that would fall in this order, from highest to lowest
Titanium
Aluminum
Steel
Brass
Zinc
All things considered, steel is probably the best material overall for general purposes. Titanium will be brighter, but you'll lose sustain. Brass would have better sustain, but you'd lose frequency response. Aluminum and zinc don't appear to be particularly good at anything for our purposes, although from a manufacturing standpoint they're far and away the easiest/cheapest to produce.
It's telling that regardless of the numbers, aluminum and zinc are the most common materials used. Why? Cost is certainly a factor. Aluminum and zinc are fairly inexpensive just as raw materials, but so is steel. However, both the former are easily die cast, which eliminates a LOT of machining. That saves time and tools, which are both expensive.
Keeping in mind that all of the materials mentioned are going to be mounted to wood, which is considerably softer and less dense than metal, and that all the considerations have to do with vibration absorption, I think the reality is that when it comes to sustain blocks the difference the material makes is not prominent enough to justify anything exotic.
..... that titanium is largely a waste of money on a guitar. It's not a bad metal at all, and is actually better than what the OEMs use (die cast zinc), but it's not as good as milled steel or brass. You actually want some mass to the bridge assembly, so it doesn't absorb vibrations. Titanium will give you less of that than even the zinc. You also want hardness, and titanium is harder than zinc, but softer than brass or steel. So, if you want better sustain and frequency response (articulation), you want either a brass or steel sustaim block. Brass might a slight edge in sustain, steel might have a slight edge in frequency response, but they'd be comparable.
Then, you want a hardened baseplate so it doesn't wear at the pivot points, and milled saddles rather than those flimsy roll-formed pieces of crap Fender uses. "But they have tone!!!" No, they don't. They eat tone, and what's left is what people think is good.
In utopia, when you start a string vibrating, it never stops and it generates harmonics all the way up past the limits of human hearing. In reality, a dozen or so things are preventing that from happening. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to minimize the influence of all those things that are trying to eat harmonics and make the string stop vibrating. So, fewer joints, hard anchors and lotsa mass. That includes the neck joint - that's like a hinge on the whole assembly. You want that to be nice and tight. That's why I've been putting threaded inserts and machine screws in for years. It's also (one of the reasons) why I don't use Floyds. Too many joints.
You can always filter out frequencies you don't want with either the guitar's tone controls, the sfx's, the amp's, the PA or recording EQ, etc. You can't add them in if they're missing because the guitar itself is eating them at birth.
For increased frequency response, you would want something harder. The block materials that would make sense for that would fall in this order, from highest to lowest
Titanium
Aluminum
Steel
Brass
Zinc
then...
..... that titanium is largely a waste of money on a guitar. It's not a bad metal at all, and is actually better than what the OEMs use (die cast zinc), but it's not as good as milled steel or brass. You actually want some mass to the bridge assembly, so it doesn't absorb vibrations. Titanium will give you less of that than even the zinc. You also want hardness, and titanium is harder than zinc, but softer than brass or steel
[When I wrote that first bit I confused Titanium's strength-to-weight ratio with hardness. It's actually somewhat flexible, which among other things is what makes it desirable for air/space craft. You can make a fairly strong part that weighs less and won't crack or work harden as easily under stress, which is something neither steel nor aluminum is good at. But, being somewhat springy (relatively speaking) means it'll absorb vibration more than steel or aluminum, which are more brittle. It'll deform and bounce back, which would have a deadening effect.
Keep in mind we're talking relative numbers here. Titanium is far from "springy", but compared to untreated steel or aluminum it is. Still, small things matter when we're talking about the small vibrations you see in a musical instrument.]
Last edited:
EDX
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
am, just to clarify, pure titanium is way heavier (denser), harder (specially to work) and stronger than steel (most common lower grades of steel), titanium only comes lighter than steel on alloys that allow it to decrease weight while exploiting titanium's superior strength and hardness (compared to steel) so that the resulting alloy is very lightweight yet extremely strong.
just so you understand, titanium vs steel is like brass/bronze vs iron, one is an alloy while the other is a pure metal with roughtly the same hardness and strenght as the alloy, so when you use the pure metal of greater strenght on an alloy you can go 2 ways, make an alloy that will be pretty much as strong as the alloy of the weaker metals, but with half the weight, or you can alloy it to get a stronger and harder but heavier alloy
highest grade of bronze alloy can be harder than the hardest STAINLESS Steel (and they had could do such alloys since bronze age), the hardest steel at it's highest temper is harder and stronger (but also more brittle) then the hardest LIGHT WEIGHT Titanium alloy
if you were to make guitar hardware out of the hardest possible titanium alloy it would be harder but also way heavier than steel, probaly you would get hardware that is heavier than it's brass/bronze counterparts but so hard that any sharp spot would destroy your strings (even EB Maraging Steel strings would be wrecked)
am, just to clarify, pure titanium is way heavier (denser), harder (specially to work) and stronger than steel (most common lower grades of steel), titanium only comes lighter than steel on alloys that allow it to decrease weight while exploiting titanium's superior strength and hardness (compared to steel) so that the resulting alloy is very lightweight yet extremely strong.
just so you understand, titanium vs steel is like brass/bronze vs iron, one is an alloy while the other is a pure metal with roughtly the same hardness and strenght as the alloy, so when you use the pure metal of greater strenght on an alloy you can go 2 ways, make an alloy that will be pretty much as strong as the alloy of the weaker metals, but with half the weight, or you can alloy it to get a stronger and harder but heavier alloy
highest grade of bronze alloy can be harder than the hardest STAINLESS Steel (and they had could do such alloys since bronze age), the hardest steel at it's highest temper is harder and stronger (but also more brittle) then the hardest LIGHT WEIGHT Titanium alloy
if you were to make guitar hardware out of the hardest possible titanium alloy it would be harder but also way heavier than steel, probaly you would get hardware that is heavier than it's brass/bronze counterparts but so hard that any sharp spot would destroy your strings (even EB Maraging Steel strings would be wrecked)
darthphineas
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Do they ever.
Remember when Ti blocks were rare enough for one place to charge over $400 a pop? Just like the tone sniffers that pay over $400 for some PAF clones swear they are the. Greatest. Thing. Ever.
Fortunately, you can get Ti sustain blocks for closer to $60 these days. Having paid on the way far low end of that scale, I'm much happier. [emoji6] even so, I have much more brass than titanium. Some guitars work better with one than the other.
Do they ever.
Remember when Ti blocks were rare enough for one place to charge over $400 a pop? Just like the tone sniffers that pay over $400 for some PAF clones swear they are the. Greatest. Thing. Ever.
Fortunately, you can get Ti sustain blocks for closer to $60 these days. Having paid on the way far low end of that scale, I'm much happier. [emoji6] even so, I have much more brass than titanium. Some guitars work better with one than the other.
PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
I'd drop $60 to try a block... link?
I'd drop $60 to try a block... link?
darthphineas
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
FR site is currently sold out. but check around. GC .com, MF .com, etc.
http://www.floydrose.com/catalog/parts/titanium-series/sustain-block
I also like the official FR blocks, as they are the same dimensions. I've come across trem cavities that won't allow a full range of motion with the 1/2" thick blocks.
FR site is currently sold out. but check around. GC .com, MF .com, etc.
http://www.floydrose.com/catalog/parts/titanium-series/sustain-block
I also like the official FR blocks, as they are the same dimensions. I've come across trem cavities that won't allow a full range of motion with the 1/2" thick blocks.
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Guitar Fetish. Caveat emptor. http://www.guitarfetish.com/Solid-Titanium-Upgrade-Tremolo-Blocks_c_522.html
Guitar Fetish. Caveat emptor. http://www.guitarfetish.com/Solid-Titanium-Upgrade-Tremolo-Blocks_c_522.html
darthphineas
New member
Re: Now Call me "The Titanium Man"
Ah! Good point. I use nothing by Floyds, so sometimes assume blocks equate to Floyd blocks.
I know TiSonix has some Strat type stuff on their site, but I don't know if it's prototype items or gone into production.
Ah! Good point. I use nothing by Floyds, so sometimes assume blocks equate to Floyd blocks.
I know TiSonix has some Strat type stuff on their site, but I don't know if it's prototype items or gone into production.
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