Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

Why would price matter?

It's about the build quality. If you watched even five minutes of the video in the OP, you'll understand what makes any Music Man a superior instrument to many, many production guitars. The skill that it takes to make them, the attention to every last detail, and perhaps most importantly the ethos of the company that produces these instruments and the people that take enough pride in their work to uphold that ethos in their work.

I misunderstood what you were saying. But now that I understand better, I would like to clarify my statement. I think that Music Man guitars (not basses) first and foremost are overrated. I don't think that they play as nicely as other guitars. I think the necks are too thin, and that they don't sound as good as other guitars in that price point. That being said, I do appreciate the level of care that they put into their instruments. I do believe, however, that other companies can and are doing this level of craftmanship on their instruments. I think Fender has gotten their instruments to a level where the amount of skill going into building the guitars is beyond what the usual is (see Gibson or most other companies making $1000 - $1500 guitars). Once again, I like that Music Man has put forth such an effort to put well built, mostly affordable instruments into the hands of players who wish to enjoy them. I still ask "What makes them superior?" Superior is saying that the instrument succeeds other instruments in terms of sound, playability, and quality of build. To use that as my scorecard, Music Man guitars are superior to my instruments only in quality of build. My guitars sound better to my ears, because they have the sound I'm looking for. My guitars play better because they have big, fat necks and I have big hands. In order for the Music Man to be superior, I would need to change several things about the instrument and my technique, and then it is no longer superior to what I had because I'm not playing them the same way, it then becomes "different". So to say that the Music Man is superior to other instruments has an unspoken second part of the sentence: "for you". You look at cheap guitars as a novelty that are "lots of fun" but I look at them as "I need a new guitar because mine is no longer worth fixing and I can only afford cheap, so let's find a great instrument sub $500". When you have the ability to spend a little extra, it's easy to tell other people that something is better than another, but when you have literally, as of today, $23.40 (because I currently do not have a job (but working on it, might have to sign up as a nude model here at school)), you look at things a little different.

Respect to you though, because you are probably 10x the guitarist I am, and I do have a lot to learn. I never said I wasn't going to fight back a little, though.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I really appreciate tye fantastic build, but I find them cold and sterile instruments. A precision machine. Great platform for HO pups, lotsa preamp gain, and lots of effects.

And aesthetically, not my thing.


As for binding, nobody beats Hamer USA (rip)

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

No, I understand what you're saying and I get what Agile is saying about the fact that a "quality" guitar is made with more skill and precision, and that's no less evident on my ****ty ass Hamer that is about on it's last legs. However, that's if you define "quality" how the guitar is built. I know that there was about zero thought put forth by the people who made my favorite guitar, but I still consider it a quality guitar because it does play incredibly well. I've played guitars that cost 10x as much as my guitar did (I payed $100 for it), but they don't move me in the same way. I totally get where you're coming from, and I hope I'm not coming off as ignorant, but I think that to address Agile's comment about superior instruments, what defines them as superior? Is it the price? By that logic, Gibson's Sully Erna Signature Les Paul is superior to a 2013 SG Standard, even though we all know that Sully Erna's signature guitar sucks a whole lot of ass. I wish I could say that I can agree that Music Man guitars are good, but I think that they are overrated. I think Music Man does well on their basses (I own a SUB Ray5 (which is also worth the $300 price tag)), but that their guitar designs lack over the Gibson Explorer I so covet. As always though, respect to you, because you do know a lot more than me (like how to solder without burning you fingers).

Its cool young brother. I don't find you ignorant, in the least. Words on a forum always fall short for me. Price is irrelevant here and is only used to put the 'idea' of the conversation in context. And your right, a lot of 'expensive' guitars have really hit-miss quality builds and QC. Some are flat out embarrassing. I find this true of Fender Tele, Srat, J-bass, P-bass quality regularly. Same with Gibson. Particularly if you pull stock from the shelves at music stores (despite the public battering that happens to guitars at music stores). Really inconsistent fret work, average finish work, electronics shorting out etc. And then you find the $400 import LP copy that is setup better. LOL!

No this thread only covers one part of a bigger conversation. But...for Agiles post and for my comments, the '100 details' that Sterling mentions is what keeps the QC at MM up to par and worth the cost they ask, whether we like the MM style or sound. Also, in my first post I mentioned that great 'sound' and great 'quality' are not synonymous and honestly they should not be used that way. The two subjects are not the same and we commonly lose sight of the point of our dialogue when we defend either one or corss pollinate the subjects. Expensive never equals quality sound by default and cheap never equals low-quality sound by default. But most companies who have the intention of high quality in their build process also have a high quality of sound intended in that process as well. Whether we like the sound being offered or not is not the conversation. Respect, RG

 

[uOpt]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I just wish that Music Man would get out of the control freak zone every now and then.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

Its cool young brother. I don't find you ignorant, in the least. Words on a forum always fall short for me. Price is irrelevant here and is only used to put the 'idea' of the conversation in context. And your right, a lot of 'expensive' guitars have really hit-miss quality builds and QC. Some are flat out embarrassing. I find this true of Fender Tele, Srat, J-bass, P-bass quality regularly. Same with Gibson. Particularly if you pull stock from the shelves at music stores (despite the public battering that happens to guitars at music stores). Really inconsistent fret work, average finish work, electronics shorting out etc. And then you find the $400 import LP copy that is setup better. LOL!

No this thread only covers one part of a bigger conversation. But...for Agiles post and for my comments, the '100 details' that Sterling mentions is what keeps the QC at MM up to par and worth the cost they ask, whether we like the MM style or sound. Also, in my first post I mentioned that great 'sound' and great 'quality' are not synonymous and honestly they should not be used that way. The two subjects are not the same and we commonly lose sight of the point of our dialogue when we defend either one or corss pollinate the subjects. Expensive never equals quality sound by default and cheap never equals low-quality sound by default. But most companies who have the intention of high quality in their build process also have a high quality of sound intended in that process as well. Whether we like the sound being offered or not is not the conversation. Respect, RG

Well, I appreciate what you are saying, because it does highlight a point that I was trying to make. We always say a brand has superior instruments, but there's always one unspoken part that we always seem to forget and that is the "for me." Agile loves his Music Mans and that's cool. Does MM make instruments that look cool and sound pretty good in the right hands? Yeah, but the key there is "in the right hands". So as always, despite my incredibly stubborn personality, much respect to the guys on here, whether they agree with me or not.

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I find them most of them Fugly.. of course that is my taste. But the odd thing is I have in the past grown to love things I did not like. So yes maybe in the future I would be playing a Albert lee.
Regarding all this thing about 300$ gear and Premium priced. Well there are lots of very good 300 $ well made guitars, that will last a life time and wont be on their last legs or fall apart. But it is not right to compare them with a Premium priced well made instruments, made with top quality hardware and wood. You get what you pay for. Yes and there are a lot of Overpriced not so good guitars out there.

 

[scottish]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

that was a really cool video. thanks for posting

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

Well, I appreciate what you are saying, because it does highlight a point that I was trying to make. We always say a brand has superior instruments, but there's always one unspoken part that we always seem to forget and that is the "for me." Agile loves his Music Mans and that's cool. Does MM make instruments that look cool and sound pretty good in the right hands? Yeah, but the key there is "in the right hands". So as always, despite my incredibly stubborn personality, much respect to the guys on here, whether they agree with me or not.

I don't think we ever 'miss' or 'forget' that part. What I see happening is that personal 'sound' choice gets dropped into the mix when it was never part of the point. For example PRS makes superior guitars on the whole. This is due to the attention to detail, care, passion, love, intent, whatever put in at each step. As a whole they make a better 'build' than many of their competitors. But do they sound better? That is a silly question that for some reason we actually debate on forums. Better for what? Better for who? Of course they don't sound better or worse, they sound like what they sound like. I am new to PRS, I bought my first just this past year. After playing 5 PRS studio models off the wall here at Guitar Resurrection, all 5 were setup with stunning perfection from the factory and every bit of detail was impressive. Its a whole different level of 'feel' which gave me total confience to order a $3000 instrument without playing it first so I cold get the color I wanted. When it arrived it was just as impressive. I have done nothing to it, nothing in the setup. nada. I just don't see that very often but I do see that with MM. As for personal taste, I get it. I don't align with the MM guitar style myself for my 'taste' per se but man I do love the MM basses, always have. I bought my first MM from Kevin Beller at Seymour Duncan. A white vintage early 70's single pickup with a big noisy preamp and string mutes. Ha. 100% stock. Great bass. Rock on! Respect, RG

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I don't think we ever 'miss' or 'forget' that part. What I see happening is that personal 'sound' choice gets dropped into the mix when it was never part of the point. For example PRS makes superior guitars on the whole. This is due to the attention to detail, care, passion, love, intent, whatever put in at each step. As a whole they make a better 'build' than many of their competitors. But do they sound better? That is a silly question that for some reason we actually debate on forums. Better for what? Better for who? Of course they don't sound better or worse, they sound like what they sound like. I am new to PRS, I bought my first just this past year. After playing 5 PRS studio models off the wall here at Guitar Resurrection, all 5 were setup with stunning perfection from the factory and every bit of detail was impressive. Its a whole different level of 'feel' which gave me total confience to order a $3000 instrument without playing it first so I cold get the color I wanted. When it arrived it was just as impressive. I have done nothing to it, nothing in the setup. nada. I just don't see that very often but I do see that with MM. As for personal taste, I get it. I don't align with the MM guitar style myself for my 'taste' per se but man I do love the MM basses, always have. I bought my first MM from Kevin Beller at Seymour Duncan. A white vintage early 70's single pickup with a big noisy preamp and string mutes. Ha. 100% stock. Great bass. Rock on! Respect, RG

PRS are fantastically well built instruments, but on the whole they once again, don't do anything for me. And that was the whole point of my comment. Everyone has a personal taste and when you ask 10 people what they would recommend for a good semi professional guitar and you will 10 different answers, because each one has a certain sound that they look for and the instruments that person likes have that sound, which is why I say that "for me" is often forgotten because so many players focus on what's good for them that they forget that nobody plays like them and might be looking for something else in the instrument. But I once again think that "superior" is subjective. If you look at it strictly from build quality, then yes PRS and MM have the best instruments on the market, hands down. But if you look at "superior" from the point of view of "What fulfills my needs as a player?" MM's are terrible for me due to their skinny necks. I love MM basses because they have a great sound for me and those five strings are still workable. I tried out several different 5 strings of various different brands and found that for me the necks on the bass I bought was better suited to my needs because it allowed me better access to the high frets on the lower strings (Jazz Bass necks around the 12 fret feel like a boat paddle). But my bass player loves his 5 string Fender Jazz because he has longer fingers than I do, and that allows better access in itself. Each player has different needs and to say that one guitar is superior strictly based on build quality is ignoring the fact that not every player wants that guitar.

I think we agree on this issue, but we have to figure out the wording for it. I dislike superior when it comes to instruments. An acoustic does folk great, but most likely wouldn't be found in a blackened death metal band, unless needed. A Superstrat with an EMG 81 and 7 strings is fantastic for blackened death metal, but probably wouldn't do folk very well. Which guitar is superior? Well if you play blackened death metal, obviously you first reaction would be to go for the 7 string. If you are a primarily bluegrass player, then you are going to better utilize the acoustic. Different tools for different jobs and different hands.

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

PRS are fantastically well built instruments, but on the whole they once again, don't do anything for me. And that was the whole point of my comment. Everyone has a personal taste and when you ask 10 people what they would recommend for a good semi professional guitar and you will 10 different answers, because each one has a certain sound that they look for and the instruments that person likes have that sound, which is why I say that "for me" is often forgotten because so many players focus on what's good for them that they forget that nobody plays like them and might be looking for something else in the instrument. But I once again think that "superior" is subjective. If you look at it strictly from build quality, then yes PRS and MM have the best instruments on the market, hands down. But if you look at "superior" from the point of view of "What fulfills my needs as a player?" MM's are terrible for me due to their skinny necks. I love MM basses because they have a great sound for me and those five strings are still workable. I tried out several different 5 strings of various different brands and found that for me the necks on the bass I bought was better suited to my needs because it allowed me better access to the high frets on the lower strings (Jazz Bass necks around the 12 fret feel like a boat paddle). But my bass player loves his 5 string Fender Jazz because he has longer fingers than I do, and that allows better access in itself. Each player has different needs and to say that one guitar is superior strictly based on build quality is ignoring the fact that not every player wants that guitar.

I think we agree on this issue, but we have to figure out the wording for it. I dislike superior when it comes to instruments. An acoustic does folk great, but most likely wouldn't be found in a blackened death metal band, unless needed. A Superstrat with an EMG 81 and 7 strings is fantastic for blackened death metal, but probably wouldn't do folk very well. Which guitar is superior? Well if you play blackened death metal, obviously you first reaction would be to go for the 7 string. If you are a primarily bluegrass player, then you are going to better utilize the acoustic. Different tools for different jobs and different hands.

You are right in that 'auto biographical' responses are the most common and sometimes the least helpful. In truth, there are only a small percentage on most forums experienced enough to flesh out a non autobiographical response while not pulling from or rehashing the popular opinion or lore of others. Forum culture is just that, forum culture.

As for languaging our concept, you may dislike 'superior' for the meaning it has for you but it is 'a' (not the only) right word in this situation. It was used in the context of build quality. Applying it to anything else is irrelevant. Cheers! Respect, RG

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I've wanted one of those Albert Lee humbucker jobs with the rosewood neck for a while. I think I'm gonna start saving up now.

 

[jmh151]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

EBMM makes fine guitars, I have an EBMM Axis. However, even their guitars need fine tuning. I had mine refretted with extra jumbo frets, and it took care of the problem of the neck feeling too small. The neck angle on their Floyd equipped guitars still has to be shimmed to get perfect action.

If you gel with their guitars, great. But they are still a small company, and it would be nice if they offered a few more options models like a wide neck with jumbo frets- that would help open their market more

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

EBMM makes fine guitars, I have an EBMM Axis. However, even their guitars need fine tuning. I had mine refretted with extra jumbo frets, and it took care of the problem of the neck feeling too small. The neck angle on their Floyd equipped guitars still has to be shimmed to get perfect action.

If you gel with their guitars, great. But they are still a small company, and it would be nice if they offered a few more options models like a wide neck with jumbo frets- that would help open their market more

I dunno, my Floyd-equipped Y2D is perfect and plays like a ****ing dream.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

EBMM makes fine guitars, I have an EBMM Axis. However, even their guitars need fine tuning. I had mine refretted with extra jumbo frets, and it took care of the problem of the neck feeling too small. The neck angle on their Floyd equipped guitars still has to be shimmed to get perfect action.

If you gel with their guitars, great. But they are still a small company, and it would be nice if they offered a few more options models like a wide neck with jumbo frets- that would help open their market more

Not to mention making at least one single model with wider string spacing than the equivalent of a 1-5/8" Fender nut. Just doesn't work for me.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

Not to mention making at least one single model with wider string spacing than the equivalent of a 1-5/8" Fender nut. Just doesn't work for me.

The Petrucci is so awesome that it's the only guitar they need with a wide spacing.

 

[jmh151]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I dunno, my Floyd-equipped Y2D is perfect and plays like a ****ing dream.

Mine always played great for years, but then I started getting buzz at the first fret. My guitar tech told me the neck had "fishtailed" over years, and to correct it, it needed a new fret job. Granted, this is after 10 years.

Stock it had low action, but you couldn't lower it any further. To get it ultra low I needed to shim the neck angle, and put a small shim under the Floyd. In comparison, my new EVH Striped didn't need any shims

 

[uOpt]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

The Petrucci is so awesome that it's the only guitar they need with a wide spacing.

The Petrucci has a wider nut but the string spacing is back to narrow. You would have to have a new nut made.

 

[kilphody]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I think the Albert Lee in coral looks cool as hell.
Would I buy one? No.
Will I make one.... TBA
PC

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

You are right in that 'auto biographical' responses are the most common and sometimes the least helpful. In truth, there are only a small percentage on most forums experienced enough to flesh out a non autobiographical response while not pulling from or rehashing the popular opinion or lore of others. Forum culture is just that, forum culture.

As for languaging our concept, you may dislike 'superior' for the meaning it has for you but it is 'a' (not the only) right word in this situation. It was used in the context of build quality. Applying it to anything else is irrelevant. Cheers! Respect, RG

I just feel that "Superior" has the connotation that one guitar is better than another is all aspects, and that includes sound and playability. I think we agree on the basic premise that while Music Man guitars are fantastically well built, they don't always work for everybody. The rest is just semantics.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Now THIS is How You Mass Produce High Quality Guitars

I must admit to skimming a lot of the posts but I do see a confusion between "build quality & level of detail" with the resulting "playability and sonic quality" of an instrument with A LOT of personal preference in looks/feel/specs thrown in for good measure.

It is completely conceivable for ANY guitarist to like a specific 300$ guitar A LOT more than (again) a specific 2000$ one simply because the 300$ one is a better fit for him/her than the 2000$ one, be it because of the sound, feel, specs or even something as basic as general shape and look.
This doesn't detract from the fact that the 2000$ guitar (usually, with some notable exceptions) has a level of detail to it plus a multitude of extra steps that have been taken to ensure the best possible results and highest level of consistency that the 300$ one quite frankly can't possibly have.

To be blunt, you can't spend the same amount of time on one guitar and/or put the same grade of wood or same quality hardware as what a 2000$ guitar gets and still hit a 300$ price-point. You HAVE to cut A LOT of corners to get to it.
That being said, happy accidents DO happen and if you are lucky enough to come across one, well get it on the spot and never look back!

Another misconception concerning the price of the guitar is when there are special circumstances like it being a 2nd hand purchase or a NOS in which case, all bets are off.
I'll gladly put my Washburn Grover Jackson-era MGs against ANY boutique guitar with confidence that at the very least they will hold their own even if they cost me 1/5 what the boutique ones do BUT when they were built 20 years ago they WERE boutique guitars, their building took just as long and the people who built them also used every trick in the book plus the absolute best in materials and hardware to get those results.