NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

[sosomething]

Scott, the other guitar player in my band and I went in 50/50 on a Kemper to help us record the 3rd DoB album.

It arrived today.

Let me tell you folks - holy effing crap.

I only had about 1 1/2 hours to play around with it before band practice tonight. My impressions from that session were that it basically works like any other modeler, albeit a very powerful and flexible one with regard to the tone shaping, effects, and amp/cab configuration. A lot of the profiles loaded on it when I got it weren't knocking my socks off, but I did find a JTM 45 profile on it that I was able to augment with a Tube Screamer, EVH phaser, and studio graphic EQ into something I actually felt sounded pretty darned good and usable in an album tracking environment. In short, I was optimistic but not fully convinced.

Then I boxed it up and took it with me to our rehearsal studio.

We played through our set for our upcoming show, and just intended to hook the Kemper up to the board and listen to the "rig" I'd modified afterwards. That was until our bass player said "I'm really more interested in hearing it do what it was made to do. Let's mic up one of your amps and see if we can make a profile of the thing."

So we did. We used my '93 VHT (Fryette) Pittbull Classic on the Lead channel through my Splawn 4x12. Mic'd up one of the Emi Redcoat Governers with a single off-axis SM-57 through a tube mic pre, ran that into the Kemper, ran the Kemper mains out into the board, and plugged my '08 LP Trad into the Kemper's input. Then we ran the profiling algorithm through it.

"BWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW shshshshshshshshshshshshshs GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

...And it was done. Because we don't get great cab isolation from our control room, we recorded the reference amp and Kemper to the DAW (Reaper) and then listened back. It was pretty surprisingly close. About 90% there. You could tell from the waveforms that it wasn't responding exactly the same while playing. Again, it sounded very similar, but it didn't respond like the amp did.

Then we performed the "Refine" step. You basically hit a button and play a bunch of hard, open chords and harmonics and crazy stuff through the Kemper into the amp - like you're trying to push the limits of how a guitar will hit the input stage of the amp - and the Kemper "listens" to it respond. When you feel you've done enough - we did it for about 2 minutes - you hit the "Finished" button. Then we recorded an A/B between the regular mic'd reference amp and Kemper profile again.

Dead. Ringer.

It was freaking identical. Identical. The Kemper profile was absolutely 100% indistinguishable from the recorded signal from my VHT. Not close. Not really really close. Not "golly I don't think I could tell a difference" close. It was the exact same. We all crapped our pants.

I'm still in a bit of shock. I know it's possible because I witnessed it not 2 hours ago with my own eyes and ears, but it's still almost hard to believe some crazy lunchbox airplane dashboard-looking thing could basically become my VHT (through the signal path we made for it with the mics and pre's and board). But it did. It's on there now, on my desk. That very same sound. Incredible.

---

I don't want to get into an Axe-FX vs. Kemper debate. In my opinion they are two very different tools. This is not a modeler. It's not going to have the kind of flexibility model-to-model that the Axe would. But if you're looking to capture your studio tones to have them available to you with any DAW at any time in any place - and they sound identical to the tones you would get if you tracked everything with mics right there through live amps running hot glass - the Kemper 100 ****ing percent delivers.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

The Kemper is the single best guitar-related purchase I have ever made, and possibly the best recording-related purchase I've ever made. It truly is instant recall of a recording chain. I'm glad you picked one up - if you can be swayed, anyone can.


If anyone else is really skeptical... have a go at this for yourselves:

 

[B2D]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

The Kemper is the single best guitar-related purchase I have ever made, and possibly the best recording-related purchase I've ever made. It truly is instant recall of a recording chain. I'm glad you picked one up - if you can be swayed, anyone can.


If anyone else is really skeptical... have a go at this for yourselves:

Haha!! I guessed correctly!

I'm really gonna have to sit down and do some homework and reading about this thing. I've been so busy with school and graphics as of late I haven't had the time, but if people like you two can get down with this, that's some high praise.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

Haha!! I guessed correctly!

I'm really gonna have to sit down and do some homework and reading about this thing. I've been so busy with school and graphics as of late I haven't had the time, but if people like you two can get down with this, that's some high praise.

Yeah, people with discerning ears on good systems can usually hear the slight "forwardness" that the KPA brings to the tone, but in context, try turning off your monitor and guessing where the changes happen:



I'd be lying if I said I couldn't always pass the blind test with mine when playing through it, but once recorded I can't tell the difference once any other element, be it drums or bass, is added.

The other thing that people forget about is the SPDIF capability, which allows for two things:

1. You can capture any tone you want and then record it, conversion free, through any interface you want. It could be the cheapest POS interface in the world; as long as it has SPDIF, you're getting uncompromised tone.

2. You can reamp through SPDIF with no extra hardware. Two cables between the KPA and interface and you can record your DI and Kemper tone simultaneously (SPDIF is stereo) and then reamp that DI back through the Kemper after the fact and never leave the digital realm. It's completely changed the way I record guitars and get tones while mixing.


Hope I'm not derailing too much and more adding to the discussion, Adam! I've got some rad, non-public profiles I can send your way if you'd like; just shoot me a PM.

 

[Brow]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

On an unrelated note: do you have just Eminence Governers in your Splawn cab or do you have them mixed with something else?

 

[B2D]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

On an unrelated note: do you have just Eminence Governers in your Splawn cab or do you have them mixed with something else?

That's something I'd wondered... I have Governors and Man-O-Wars in my cab and I really like that mix. Can you set the Kemper up to monitor and model off of both of those?

I was just looking at some in-depth stuff on YouTube and at the Kemper site as well... looks like they'll be making one with a built-in poweramp soon? That's great!

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

Interesting!

 

[dominus]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

I don't want to get into an Axe-FX vs. Kemper debate. In my opinion they are two very different tools. This is not a modeler. It's not going to have the kind of flexibility model-to-model that the Axe would. But if you're looking to capture your studio tones to have them available to you with any DAW at any time in any place - and they sound identical to the tones you would get if you tracked everything with mics right there through live amps running hot glass - the Kemper 100 ****ing percent delivers.

That's exactly what it does, and does well.

If you don't have your own studio tone to start with though, it might not do everything you want it to do. If you're relying on other people's profiles, it's no different than buying a modeler and going off of other people's presets. I had one and went through it for about 3 weeks, never quite finding *my* sound. I wasn't ready to spend more money on tones from The Amp Factory so I sold it. If the next generation KPA has more control for tweaking, I'll probably give it another shot.

 

[xxxplorer]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

D.O.B. is one of my favorite bands (seriously), and the tones on the albums are awesome. Then again, even his demos through a pod sound great lol... But, if Adam gives the kemper a thumbs up then it has to be good. How is it live?

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

I don't want to get into an Axe-FX vs. Kemper debate. In my opinion they are two very different tools. This is not a modeler. It's not going to have the kind of flexibility model-to-model that the Axe would. But if you're looking to capture your studio tones to have them available to you with any DAW at any time in any place - and they sound identical to the tones you would get if you tracked everything with mics right there through live amps running hot glass - the Kemper 100 ****ing percent delivers.

I just bought an AXE FX II and feel the same way as it profiles amps as well. Still to call the Kemper 'not a modeler' doesn't hold water in real-time real world terms. It modeled your VHT and gave it back to you in 1s and 0s... That's exactly what it does, language aside. It models. 'Profiling', 'Modeling' are just words, the science doesn't change. The AXE FX II has tone matching which results in the same result. It takes YOUR recorded amp and gives it back to you as is, as micd, present, clear, upfront. That was the purpose of my purchase. Its actually a bit hard to grasp what is happening it is so intense. These units, as so many before me have said, are game changers. All I can say or do is simply agree. The old 'tubes' vs' digital' argument will still happen on forums and music stores, but it is a moot point now. The reality for classic old school guitar tones is tubes AND digital, side by side, working together. Or in the studio, just digital. It is so impressive it is a bit unnerving. These are very exciting times, very exciting. Cheers and Respect!

 

[dominus]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

I just bought an AXE FX II and feel the same way as it profiles amps as well. Still to call the Kemper 'not a modeler' doesn't hold water in real-time real world terms. It modeled your VHT and gave it back to you in 1s and 0s... That's exactly what it does, language aside. It models. 'Profiling', 'Modeling' are just words, the science doesn't change. The AXE FX II has tone matching which results in the same result. It takes YOUR recorded amp and gives it back to you as is, as micd, present, clear, upfront. That was the purpose of my purchase. Its actually a bit hard to grasp what is happening it is so intense. These units, as so many before me have said, are game changers. All I can say or do is simply agree. The old 'tubes' vs' digital' argument will still happen on forums and music stores, but it is a moot point now. The reality for classic old school guitar tones is tubes AND digital, side by side, working together. Or in the studio, just digital. It is so impressive it is a bit unnerving. These are very exciting times, very exciting. Cheers and Respect!

I would disagree with saying that profiling and modeling are the same thing.

Modeling is where they use code and a diagram of the amp to program how something is supposed to sound.

Profiling is similar to sampling, where they're taking a sample of how something sounds in a certain context and playing it back.

The Axe FX II does both now. It profiles existing amps, but it also models other amps. The Kemper only profiles, it doesn't model. The tweakability is limited to the built in EQ curves of the unit itself. On a modeled amp, the EQ reacts differently on each model. A Mesa Rectifier reacts differently EQ wise than a Marshall does. On a Kemper, they both react the same way to EQ changes.

Both profiling and modeling have their places, and both will give excellent results. Right now I get the best results from modeled amps and cabinet IRs (which are sampled). It gives me a better sound (according to what *I* need) than the Kemper did at the time. I am looking forward to the next gen Kemper and will hopefully try out an Axe II someday. (If only Cliff would sell them through Sweetwater where I could get 24 months same as cash. )

 

[sosomething]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

The Kemper is the single best guitar-related purchase I have ever made, and possibly the best recording-related purchase I've ever made. It truly is instant recall of a recording chain. I'm glad you picked one up - if you can be swayed, anyone can.

I've only just scratched the surface with it. I will agree that the feel is not 100% like an amp when playing - mostly because you're not dealing with the kind of volume and feedback interaction you get from an amp - but recorded side-by-side, my ears (or monitors) are not good enough for me to confidently differentiate between then in a blind test. It's really incredible.

On an unrelated note: do you have just Eminence Governers in your Splawn cab or do you have them mixed with something else?

My cab is Governers and Man O Wars in an X pattern. When album tracking, I generally mic them both to separate channels.

That's something I'd wondered... I have Governors and Man-O-Wars in my cab and I really like that mix. Can you set the Kemper up to monitor and model off of both of those?

If you have a 2-channel mixer, you can run 2 mics mixed to a mono send to the Kemper profiling input. This is what we will do when we create the actual profiles to use on the album.

D.O.B. is one of my favorite bands (seriously), and the tones on the albums are awesome. Then again, even his demos through a pod sound great lol... But, if Adam gives the kemper a thumbs up then it has to be good. How is it live?

:bigthumb: Thanks, man!!

I don't know how the Kemper is live. You either have to turn off the cabinet profile and run it into the Return of your amp's loop or use some kind of poweramp / monitor setup for it to sound right. I'm not really interested in doing that though. For me, playing live still requires the use (and simplicity) of my real tube amp setup.

The Axe FX II does both now. It profiles existing amps, but it also models other amps. The Kemper only profiles, it doesn't model. The tweakability is limited to the built in EQ curves of the unit itself. On a modeled amp, the EQ reacts differently on each model. A Mesa Rectifier reacts differently EQ wise than a Marshall does. On a Kemper, they both react the same way to EQ changes.

Between the Axe and Kemper, the Kemper just looked like a better fit for me. I was aware that the Axe II does profiling now and is ultimately more flexible, but I felt more comfortable going with the device that was engineered from the ground up to do exactly what I would be using it for... rather than the Axe kind of moving toward the "me too" mode with the limited interface of the rack unit controls.

FWIW I'm going to be using 90% profiles of my own amps that I have made. I won't be doing a lot of messing with the controls - my goal is to get the profiled tones to be good enough that I don't need or want to do much shaping after the fact.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

Yeah, I think profiling is the process by which the models are built. Then when the models are used to play through, that's what we call "modelling".

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

I would disagree with saying that profiling and modeling are the same thing.

Ha. Of course, its a forum. Though it doesnt change anything. :18: Semantics aside it makes little difference. Both 'reproduce' amps using impulse responses as the core. The amp models in the AXE FX are (profiles) of amps.
The rest is proprietary. Unique to each company. If we call either one of them a 'modeler' it isn't the same type of 'modeler' as what we have come to know with say Line 6 HD etc (No disrespect and lots of love to my brethren POD owners). This is a different technology. 'Modeling' is no more than just a word to describe a process, same as profiling. I don't care what word is used myself, I like the word 'awesome'. Cheers.

 

[JeffB]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

You said the onboard jtm45 was meh (edit-until you added a bunch of effects)..and the real improvement came with the amp you own and spending time using a refine function?. So you are limitedby the quality of the original amp? In which case ,do you need to start profiling all the great tube amps in person? Rent them,buy them? How does this make the originals obsolete?

I do not understand the allure if you do not have access to the amps youwwnt to have models of. Why bother making digital clones of something you already have? What about live in the room?how does it sound through a cab?


Keep in mind I have read about 1 paragraph of a sweetwater ad of these profiler things, so my understanding could very well be limited.

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

You said the onboard jtm45 was meh (edit-until you added a bunch of effects)..and the real improvement came with the amp you own and spending time using a refine function?. So you are limitedby the quality of the original amp? In which case ,do you need to start profiling all the great tube amps in person? Rent them,buy them? How does this make the originals obsolete?

I do not understand the allure if you do not have access to the amps youwwnt to have models of. Why bother making digital clones of something you already have? What about live in the room?how does it sound through a cab?


Keep in mind I have read about 1 paragraph of a sweetwater ad of these profiler things, so my understanding could very well be limited.

The Kemper is preloaded with classic amp models, cab choices etc. (They call them rigs). All the usual suspect and a few others. Plus classic effects modeled ("including painstakingly modeled famous overdrive and distortion stomp boxes, compressor, reverb, several delays, and a beautiful rotary speaker emulation. We’ve also created accurate models of classic retro modulation effects such as a variety of chorus, phaser and flanger pedals.")

Plus same as the AXE FX, there is large user group data base of models to get. AXE FX calls it AxExchange, Kemper calls it RigExchange. Same idea. If your forum bro has a great amp you want to hear, he can profile it and give you the amp. Pretty awesome stuff being shared. At least with the AXE FX. I would imagine the same for the Kemper.

Its ready to go and ready to gig with great amps if you don't have an amp you would like to profile. And honestly while these 2 units really sound utterly fantastic in the studio, they are really amazing pushing air from a great cab. IMO Very impressive. Cheers.

 

[dominus]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

You said the onboard jtm45 was meh (edit-until you added a bunch of effects)..and the real improvement came with the amp you own and spending time using a refine function?. So you are limitedby the quality of the original amp? In which case ,do you need to start profiling all the great tube amps in person? Rent them,buy them? How does this make the originals obsolete?

I do not understand the allure if you do not have access to the amps youwwnt to have models of. Why bother making digital clones of something you already have? What about live in the room?how does it sound through a cab?


Keep in mind I have read about 1 paragraph of a sweetwater ad of these profiler things, so my understanding could very well be limited.

The sounds that are profiled are exactly what one person's idea of the perfect sound is..

so it could be a JTM 45 with Presence on 6, Bass on 4, Middle on 8, Treble on 6, Loudness 1 on 4, and Loudness 2 on 6. Then the cab is a 4x12 with greenbacks, captured through an SM57 at 3" from the cone.

While you *can* change the cabinet, it's done through EQing and not actually removing the profiled cabinet from the equation. The profile itself is made though the microphone and cabinet. Any EQing you want to do on the face of the amp is through a linear EQ using the Kemper's built in adjustments. You can also modify the sound of the cabinet, but changing the EQ quite a bit from the original sound will make it sound much more digital. (I'm hoping that a next generation KPA will allow you to sample the amp itself without the speakers. It would need a built in adjustable load of course.)

So if the amp profiled has EQ adjustments that react to each other (like a Mesa), those aren't profiled. You get the Kemper EQ. Hence a lot of people will make a number of snapshots/profiles of the amp with differing EQ and gain positions. Any gain that you want to add will be from the built in KPA gain sound and will not sound exactly like turning up a knob on the amp.

This is where the profiling differs from modeling. Where modeling will make an attempt to have the controls react like they do on the amp, the KPA only gives you linear adjustments. While I don't have any experience with the Axe FX or their profiling, I did try as many profiles as I could with the KPA and adjusted them for hours. This was just after they released the firmware to allow you to change the cabinet and while this got me pretty close to sounds that I was looking for, it still wasn't a fit for what I needed. Since I wasn't profiling my own amps, it just wasn't what I was looking for. If someone has their own amps and cabinets and mics and wants to take a sound with them, it's EXACTLY what they're looking for. For me, modeling coupled with amps and preamps and cabinet IRs get me the sounds I'm looking for.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

Very cool!! Congrats!!
I have 2 questions. 1st. does the Kemper come with any amp sounds loaded in, or do you have to program everything in?
2nd, did you get just the "modling" part or did you get the one with the built in power section?

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

I have a ton of my own killer profiles but I'd be lying if I didn't get the majority of my go-to sounds by combining stock profiles, my own personal profiles, and profiles done by other users. You can swap amps/cabs between profiles and use any of the (really well done and high quality) onboard effects to further modify that. And if you've got a favorite pedal not profiled yet, you can stick it in the loop or profile an amp setup with it running. It's amazingly versatile; to say that you must have access to a large collection of amps you want to profile in order to get great tones out of it is just flat-out wrong.

 

[B2D]

Re: NPAD - Kemper: Believe the Hype (a little long)

My cab is Governers and Man O Wars in an X pattern. When album tracking, I generally mic them both to separate channels.

If you have a 2-channel mixer, you can run 2 mics mixed to a mono send to the Kemper profiling input. This is what we will do when we create the actual profiles to use on the album.

That's the exact setup I have and it's what I do in the studio as well.

I have an Alesis 4-ch mixer that I use for small stuff... awesome to know it could be useful in this regard as well.