NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

[greekdude]

Hi,
I just finished replacing my old SD livewire/livewire metal set in my old Kramer 210 (which run at 18v and 100KOhm pots), with the EMG 85b/81n set. Originally I intended this to be the classic 81b/85n setup but as many ppl have experienced this does not balance well. I tested both with the stock 18v wiring as well as with bridging one of the clips (9V). here are my impressions, also with regards to another 81b/60n set that I have in my mahogany single-cut ARZ800 :
- I find the cleans of 85 in the bridge good. Better than livewire metal, for sure, but still nothing extraordinary. The 81 in the neck is somewhat darker than the livewire neck
- I kept the 9V mod, with 18V I didn't get the squealies I get with the 9V mod. Now it squeals easier almost all over the board, even in high E :33:
- I concluded once again that wood/construction/scale is VERY important. The guitar surely sounds different than with the livewires but the basic character is unchanged. The natural harmonics that used to ring very loud with the livewires are still the same harmonics that want to ring loud with the EMGs. Next strings change I will try with swapping to 81b/85n or by replacing the 81/60 I have an the ARZ800. In short I feel that what I hear in the ARZ800 is not EMG sound but mahogany 25", 24 frets, fixed bridge sound, and in the Kramer not EMG sound but 80s super strat, 22 frets, floyd-rose sound.
- So when I dreamed of getting the cleans of 81/60 in the ARZ800 with the Kramer I was wrong. The cleans in neck are nice (livewire neck was nice as well but with more treble), bridge are good, mid works nice, but not mind blowing.
- 85 output-wise, destroys the 81. 85b/81n balances very good at the same height.
- 85 is very quiet. 81 not so much.
- Distorted sounds great in bridge and neck. Plenty of shredding tones. Nice riffs.
- The 85 in the bridge is by far tighter than the livewire metal. At last I can do some riffs in heavy distortion settings without it sounding like it has reverb.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Lerv teh 85 @ teh bridge!!!
:headbang:

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Yes!! after some heavy playing I gotta say I love this combo. It stays as is. No more tests, trials or mods.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

update : I kept the 9V mod. Harmonics are poor with the 18V wiring.

 

[dave74]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

update : I kept the 9V mod. Harmonics are poor with the 18V wiring.

Good call IMO.
I personally prefer standard 9v as well.
Just too dry and stiff at 18v, and it basically negates all that is unique about the classic EMG models.

There's many passives I'd pick over 18v emgs if I was wanting more thump in the lows and less saturation in the highs.
I love the Dimebucker and the X2N for those inactive but still-scorching tones. (confessions of a railhead) lol

 

[MkIII Renegade]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Good call IMO.
I personally prefer standard 9v as well.
Just too dry and stiff at 18v, and it basically negates all that is unique about the classic EMG models.

There's many passives I'd pick over 18v emgs if I was wanting more thump in the lows and less saturation in the highs.
I love the Dimebucker and the X2N for those inactive but still-scorching tones. (confessions of a railhead) lol

I'm a 9V guy too. I wanted EMGs BECAUSE they sounded different---the original EMG sound.

I am fully behind the 85 at the bridge for guitars that need to be versatile. It is a "bigger", fuller sounding pickup and is superior for leads and lots of metal playing, although I must say that the 81 has the edge for the maximum thrash rhythm. My Charvel 650 came to me with the 81 and seemed to be missing something, which was answered by the 85. As overkill, I also added the EMG SPC adjustable midboost (replaces tone knob function) at the same time, which is a total game changer. The 85 doesn't really need the boost much, but it's nice having it to adjust to any room you happen to be in right there from your guitar.

The 85 gives truly great shred tones for neck soloing, but doesn't clean up as well as I like. The 60 is a better overall choice at the neck if cleans are important to you, or the 81 for that matter. But it sounds like the battle-proven 81/85 worked for you anyway.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Just swapped to 81b/85n . Awful, the 81 in the bridge is weak, empty, hollow, humming at 50Hz noise, no meat at all, no thickness, 85 in the neck, is very loud but indifferent. It might be the guitar, which (is said to) have plywood body, 3-piece maple neck, rosewood fretboard, floyd rose ii. The difference in tone quality between this and the 85b/81n is chaotic. And I doubt smth went wrong with wiring cause I used the quick connect cables.
I don't know, is there smth I miss? Is it the particular guitar? How come and the whole world praises the 81b/85n but it does not work at all in this guitar? Also, in contrast, is it possible the swapped setup (85b/81n) to work so well? I know ppl had good experiences with 85 in the bridge and 81 in the neck but I could expect *such* a difference.

Also I came up with smth else. EMGs don't work well with F-spaced guitars. Plucking the high E up sounds good. Plucking down sounds very week unless I move the whole pup about 1-2 mm down, but then it is the low E that starts to suffer from the equivalent effect. I plan to plug and re-drill the pup ring holes about 1.5mm down.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Thought you said you wern't doing any more? haha

If your describing it as weak, empty, hollow and humming at 50Hz with 'no meat at all' then something is wrong with the wiring.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Thought you said you wern't doing any more? haha

If your describing it as weak, empty, hollow and humming at 50Hz with 'no meat at all' then something is wrong with the wiring.

lol yes, I kept my word for a whole week! Nothing is wrong with the wiring, just checked with my other guitar ibby arz800 equipped with 81/60 (stock no mods) and hums in the same exact way. Maybe its some special night tonight with lots of EMI activity dunno. When I am talking about no meat I mean in comparison with the previous setup which had 85 in the bridge. On cleans the sounds of the 81 on the two guitars are almost identical. But distorted it seems that 81/60 on mahogany 25" works better than 81/85 on alder/maple 25.5". Well maybe I exaggerated a little bit, the sounds are OK, but the following are annoying me in the 81b/85n setup :
- 85 has to be almost flush to the body, 81 almost touch the strings in order to balance (lots of ppl online claim the same)
- 85 sounds loud but like it has no character , too bassy
- 81 sounds ok but is hummy (as happens many times)
- 81 sounds too dry

The previous setup 85b/81n was IMHO ideal for this particular guitar. I can't wait to do the mod of moving the bridge ring holes 1.5mm south, and swapping the pups to their original position.

 

[MkIII Renegade]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

lol yes, I kept my word for a whole week! Nothing is wrong with the wiring, just checked with my other guitar ibby arz800 equipped with 81/60 (stock no mods) and hums in the same exact way. Maybe its some special night tonight with lots of EMI activity dunno. When I am talking about no meat I mean in comparison with the previous setup which had 85 in the bridge. On cleans the sounds of the 81 on the two guitars are almost identical. But distorted it seems that 81/60 on mahogany 25" works better than 81/85 on alder/maple 25.5". Well maybe I exaggerated a little bit, the sounds are OK, but the following are annoying me in the 81b/85n setup :
- 85 has to be almost flush to the body, 81 almost touch the strings in order to balance (lots of ppl online claim the same)
- 85 sounds loud but like it has no character , too bassy
- 81 sounds ok but is hummy (as happens many times)
- 81 sounds too dry

The previous setup 85b/81n was IMHO ideal for this particular guitar. I can't wait to do the mod of moving the bridge ring holes 1.5mm south, and swapping the pups to their original position.

The people who use the 81b/85n combo are usually full blast all the time loud players. The 81 shines like no other when it is pushed---HARD. But I don't like it much other than that in a superstrat. It is much warmer in a Les Paul. I have an LTD neck thru superstrat with the 81b/85n and it sounds excellent when set to KILL, which it is always set to, although the EMG SPC brought it to life! I also use about 1/4 boost for rhythm, and 1/4 to 3/4 boost for leads. I still recommend getting the SPC for the full mojo even after you swap positions.

 

[dave74]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

How close is "almost touching the strings"?
I suggest getting a little steel ruler and going by mm just for the sake of reference, not for final setting (go by ears),,,,,,first from middle of bridge81 to bottom of 6th open,,,then same thing but with string fretted at last fret.

I always set the bridge to sound the best it possibly can then set the neck to balance and blend the best,,,,,,but that of course is just preference.

Personally I like just a tiny bit of inward tilt on any bridge pup. (bridge-side of pup between 1/2mm and 1mm higher than neck-side)

My distances vary a bit from one guitar to another due to slightly different gauge and tuning,,,,,,but in general I go somewhere in the 3-4mm range from the open 6th to the middle of the pup (like dead-even with the adjustment screw) and around 2-3mm when the string is fretted high.

Obviously the distance is a bit less if using the 1st string as reference,,,,,,and/or if measuring from the bridge-side (highest point) of the 81.

My strings are 10-50 ernie ball (eb) and ghs 10.5-52 (D-standard)

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

How close is "almost touching the strings"?
I suggest getting a little steel ruler and going by mm just for the sake of reference, not for final setting (go by ears),,,,,,first from middle of bridge81 to bottom of 6th open,,,then same thing but with string fretted at last fret.

in my Ibby arz800 LP-style I have the 81 much closer to the strings (about 3->2.5mm) than the 60. The 60 although not much louder than the 81 on paper, it is much hotter in the neck (naturally). However, in the Kramer things are flatter between neck and bridge pups, and the tolerances narrower. I have to flush the 85 and raise the 81 about 2mm close to the strings. At some point raising it higher destroys the sound, then its time to go back just a little.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

But I don't like it much other than that in a superstrat. It is much warmer in a Les Paul. I have an LTD neck thru superstrat with the 81b/85n and it sounds excellent when set to KILL, which it is always set to, although the EMG SPC brought it to life! I also use about 1/4 boost for rhythm, and 1/4 to 3/4 boost for leads. I still recommend getting the SPC for the full mojo even after you swap positions.

Hmmm neckthrough should be bright, right? I guess the SPC it made big improvement. But really IMHO it shouldn't be so hard to get a nice sound. I had my livewires where the metal was the absolute mid-boosted monster. Installing the SPC seems like going back to this tone. Anyway had you tried swapping pups, I guess you have, what were your experiences with/without the SPC?
I tried again this morning to play the guitar, when all EMI is gone (still don't know why, I have been investigating this for ages) and it felt much better. I got acceptable tones from the 81b, but indifferent tones from the 85n. Still some work to do with this guitar it seems. (which is nice)

 

[dave74]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

I have a basswood-winged neck-thru (maple/ebony) that I totally hate the 81 in the bridge or neck position either one.
The 85 at the neck is OK in it, at least for warm rounded cleans and buttery leads, but in the bridge it was just too loose for that wood IMO, and the highs were also not sharp and edgy enough.
It's on the back-burner for now but will eventually get passivied with something.

 

[Open lane]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Just curious, why did you split with the livewires? just not your cup of tea? Or just grow tired of them? The only
emg i ever tried was a 707 and i hated it (it could have been the construction of the guitar contributing as well), and the livewires were much more up my alley (I'm not saying you should feel the same, just curious if there was a reason)

 

[MkIII Renegade]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Hmmm neckthrough should be bright, right? I guess the SPC it made big improvement. But really IMHO it shouldn't be so hard to get a nice sound. I had my livewires where the metal was the absolute mid-boosted monster. Installing the SPC seems like going back to this tone. Anyway had you tried swapping pups, I guess you have, what were your experiences with/without the SPC?
I tried again this morning to play the guitar, when all EMI is gone (still don't know why, I have been investigating this for ages) and it felt much better. I got acceptable tones from the 81b, but indifferent tones from the 85n. Still some work to do with this guitar it seems. (which is nice)

No, I never swapped pickups in the LTD because that combo worked for that guitar (maple neck thru, alder wings, ebony board), although with metal MORE is MORE. The SPC makes it easy to get a very rich tone, although it isn't really needed for rhythm. I use it to get a fatter, more 85ish lead tone. A trick I learned from Jeff Hanneman.

When I switch back between my Charvel with the 85 (maple neck thru/alder wings/rosewood board) and the LTD with 81/SPC, it's kind of like going from a wolf (81) to a domesticated husky (85). The 81 is a ravenous beast and has the utmost cut and clarity under high gain! The ultimate metal crunch sound in my world is the mid/late '80s Slayer sound-----lean, mean, bright, and razor sharp. The core DNA of that sound is the EMG 81 and boosted Marshall JCM800, which I can ape well with my JVM. I can also get a very good Slayerish sound with my MkIII, which is my primary amp. It has tremendous cut and power when cranked. You wouldn't be able to pull it off as well with a Mesa Rectifier, which never really turned me on. I am firmly in the Mark series camp when it comes to Mesa.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Just curious, why did you split with the livewires? just not your cup of tea? Or just grow tired of them? The only
emg i ever tried was a 707 and i hated it (it could have been the construction of the guitar contributing as well), and the livewires were much more up my alley (I'm not saying you should feel the same, just curious if there was a reason)

When I bought this guitar back in 1991 it was a beast, it would shred to ribbons anything with strings and pups. The livewire metal on the bridge was just a mid range brutal pup. It was so loud I could play the guitar directly via headphones, no pre-amp of any sort. The livewire neck was good, very good. But the bridge had no cleans, could not cope with the usual rig, and was ultra loud. I tried the voltage divider mod (in common terms : a vol control) and it would balance better with the neck livewire but still no good cleans.
Anyways, I am not selling those. I might use them in some future guitar.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

No, I never swapped pickups in the LTD because that combo worked for that guitar (maple neck thru, alder wings, ebony board), although with metal MORE is MORE. The SPC makes it easy to get a very rich tone, although it isn't really needed for rhythm. I use it to get a fatter, more 85ish lead tone. A trick I learned from Jeff Hanneman.

When I switch back between my Charvel with the 85 (maple neck thru/alder wings/rosewood board) and the LTD with 81/SPC, it's kind of like going from a wolf (81) to a domesticated husky (85). The 81 is a ravenous beast and has the utmost cut and clarity under high gain! The ultimate metal crunch sound in my world is the mid/late '80s Slayer sound-----lean, mean, bright, and razor sharp. The core DNA of that sound is the EMG 81 and boosted Marshall JCM800, which I can ape well with my JVM. I can also get a very good Slayerish sound with my MkIII, which is my primary amp. It has tremendous cut and power when cranked. You wouldn't be able to pull it off as well with a Mesa Rectifier, which never really turned me on. I am firmly in the Mark series camp when it comes to Mesa.

How about noise? Do you use any noise gate with the 81?
IMHO 81 is the most humming. 60 comes second. 85 is almost on par with my Dimarzios = quiet. One of the many reasons I am going back to 85b/81n.

 

[dave74]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Are you running the 81 into a modeling amp or distortion pedal (or a solid-state amp's dirty channel)?
If so the noise is because you are essentially stacking multiple diode stages.
An active pickup has what is kind of like a tube-screamer pedal built-in it's housing.

EMGs (81/85/60) have always been quiter than high-output passives in about every case IMO.
With a good tube amp it shouldn't even need a gate unless you're at un-miced stage/show levels and/or you're boosting and running high-gain at the same time.

 

[greekdude]

Re: NPD fit EMG85/81 in my Kramer 210

Are you running the 81 into a modeling amp or distortion pedal (or a solid-state amp's dirty channel)?
If so the noise is because you are essentially stacking multiple diode stages.
An active pickup has what is kind of like a tube-screamer pedal built-in it's housing.

EMGs (81/85/60) have always been quiter than high-output passives in about every case IMO.
With a good tube amp it shouldn't even need a gate unless you're at un-miced stage/show levels and/or you're boosting and running high-gain at the same time.

Aha I never tried/thought that about tube amp! Thanx! But even with this stacking all my Dimarzios (except the Single Coil blaze in the mid position in my Ibb universe), and the old livewires (yes even the livewire metal) are all completely noiseless. I am using a modelling effect unit : boss me-25 (which covers all the sounds I need). Regarding EMG81's noise, I think it might have smth to do with 110V 60HZ power lines that you guys have in USA vs 220V 50Hz we have in Greece. And I am not talking about the domestic network but the ambient noise from the public distribution lines. That's why the 81 is noisier in the nights. Both my 81's behave exactly the same way. There was also an article which showed why the 81 is noisy having to do with its imbalanced coils, also Seymour Duncan used to advertise their blackouts as being quieter than the "other" actives pickups. : http://www.electrosmash.com/emg81