Observations on tone.

[rdclmn7]

You can conceptualize the extremes as being either that of definition that makes your fingers bleed, or extreme sustain that won't let you fingerpick chords because the blending sounds like mush.
Most guitarists will find their ideal guitar somewhere between the two extremes.
If you were to attach piezo electric pickups to different parts of a guitar, and then separate the sound by frquency, you might be surprised.

If you have one stiff guitar that doesn't appear to vibrate along the full spectrum, don't be surprised if sound samples confirm it.
Anyone who has used an equalizer can tell you that maxing out the bands amounts to an extreme jump in volume, creating that big muff Hendrix sound.

If you hook up a decent-sounding guitar to your rig, don't be surprised if the sustain is shown to be a result of both sub-harmonic and harmonic frequencies that carry the tonal frequency.

One extreme example is my 85 LP Studio, it has both sustain and definition, and once in overdrive, the stock bridge pickup sounds like it wants to devour you.
I have to keep this guitar away from the speakers as its prone to feedback.
The Strats I use have powerful(250+ Mv) lead pickups and yet these are not so feedback-prone.

This is then a matter of discerning between wood and hardware as the most important factor in a guitar's sound.
You can place a powerful pickup in a guitar that makes your fingers bleed and it doesn't make a diffference.

You can install a lower powered(225MV) pickup into your stock strat and find that the middle single-coil is louder than your humbucker.
Even after having to raise the rythym pickup for balance, that humbucker sounded as clear as the single-coil.

The easiest and cheapest alternative to costly trem blocks, saddles, and other supposed tone-enhancing hardware, is to buy a neck and swap around.
My 05 Bullet had the old thin laminated body that sounded good, but a strat w/out a trem?...
I then bought a Squier Strat and switched the necks. It sounded better.
About a month ago I decided to swap again, this time it was between one heavy Squier body, a lighter swamp-ash body, the Bullet neck and a CBS neck.
This last switch resulted in two great sounding strats.

The jury is out on whether high-mass hardware can be consistantly proven to work.
The switching of necks, has been pretty consistent resultwise.

The best trem blocks cost more than $150.
Specialized trem saddles will cost you some.
Floyd Rose trems aren't cheap.
Bigsby and alll the other non-fulcrum trems are too expensive.
There are specialized pickups that cost up to $200.
So far thats the view on hardware.

Necks can cost less than $200.
Guitarists have been switching them for years, as an option, its cheaper than buying another guitar or specialized parts that are claimed to do the impossible.

 

[Chistopher]

I don't know if I agree with all this

 

[Mincer]

Well, this was from a long time ago...his posts read like early AI.

 

[ehdwuld]

Wow all this time an he got his first reply
After what .... 17 years?
Just Wow

 

[Mincer]

I think he got no responses because it is really hard to follow (all his posts are).

 

[Solarflares]

I think he got no responses because it is really hard to follow (all his posts are).

Still, nice of him to attempt to share his early forays into sound with us.
What he lacks in knowledge he certainly makes up for in enthusiasm.

Yes, the whole guitar is responsible for it’s own resonance, even down to the screws holding the tuners, but this is hopefully aided by the speakers acting on the guitar too. Then the instrument becomes a living, breathing entity.
I’ve done gigs where the monitors made the guitar try and jump out of my hands.
A bad guitar won’t respond correctly, either to itself, or to speaker resonance.
This is why we sit down and play any prospective guitar unplugged, all over.
Firstly, I’m looking for linearity, and free-ringing sustain. I will generally know how it will sound plugged in, long before I get near an amp.
I’ve never known a guitar to be too responsive that it can’t be amplified, and any problem is usually that the guitar is frequency selective in it’s resonance. But then, I wouldn’t play an all mahogany guitar flat out through a Marshall stack, and expect to control it.
I built my first serious Strat out of 6 different Strats in the shop one night.
A ‘79 body, with a ‘78 rosewood neck. The profile was real low, pickups screwed right down. The first all black Strat with a rosewood board in the UK. It just spoke to me. Threw the other 5 guitars back together. God help whoever bought them!
That guitar got me into a band, and I was suddenly gigging professionally with loud monitors - the true test of any guitar.
The guitar was fantastic. Just the perfect amount of damping from the thick black Poly finish, with great linearity, and playability.
I went mainly for neck transference, where the whole guitar felt as one in it’s vibrancy, and my choice paid off.

 

[marcello252]

A bad guitar won’t respond correctly, either to itself, or to speaker resonance.

I agree, and this comes in my mind everytime I hear someone saying that wood doesn't matter and the only thing which matters are the pickups, plenty of videos on YT of people claiming this at bedroom level.
I think nobody of them have played a guitar in the right condition where amplified sound starts interacting with the instrument, I mean, a good old marshall stack at an old decent volume gig level is enough to feel the differences between guitars in that context, and still I don't think they've ever tried it

 

[Artie]

The thing that jumped out at me was the "> $150 for a tremblock." What would be lacking in a solid brass, or steel, block from Musiclilly for $25?

 

[Chistopher]

The thing that jumped out at me was the "> $150 for a tremblock." What would be lacking in a solid brass, or steel, block from Musiclilly for $25?

Price-value bias

 

[Chistopher]

I agree, and this comes in my mind everytime I hear someone saying that wood doesn't matter and the only thing which matters are the pickups, plenty of videos on YT of people claiming this at bedroom level.
I think nobody of them have played a guitar in the right condition where amplified sound starts interacting with the instrument, I mean, a good old marshall stack at an old decent volume gig level is enough to feel the differences between guitars in that context, and still I don't think they've ever tried it

Yeah, but on the same hand, if guitar resonance at stage volume was a good thing, we would have stuck with hollowbodies

 

[Solarflares]

We are looking to transfer initial string energy into a fundamental note, once it achieves oscillation.
This fundamental is affected by the string’s contact points, and the picking technique employed to get the string oscillating.
We can add harmonic complexity to this fundamental by different picking techniques.
But once the string is in oscillation, the contact points can’t help but transfer some energy into their mounting area, which in most cases is the wood of the body and headstock join.
The most important relationship is between the neck and body, as both will have differing resonant frequencies.
Hopefully we have a vibrant guitar, where neck/body transfer is good, and the disparity of resonant frequency is in the order of easily divisible numbers - like 200hz/400hz for example. But it will more likely not be so easy, which is why this subject is one of such complexity.
The effect of body/neck resonance on the string’s fundamental is generally quite linear. We are not storing energy, just moving it around. This movement has to be efficient.
If there are any barriers to normal all-round transference, then they will in no way ‘store’ that energy and release it later. This cannot happen. We cannot add resonance, because if we increase mass anywhere, then this requires more energy to offset its detrimental effect on resonance.
But we must perhaps investigate ways in which we can increase the transference of string energy to the woods, in the interests of making the guitar an instrument, rather than a simple tensioned platform for fundamental oscillations.

This is beyond my scope and attention-span, and this is just food for thought.

Yes, we can take an awful guitar, and liven it up with a bone nut and saddles, in the world of acoustic guitars.
With electric guitars, there are many aftermarket ‘accessories’ that people claim make a positive difference.
But each guitar is unique, and there is no set positive outcome.
What I do see is people adding negatives to their instruments, and unknowingly mitigating existing issues that a great instrument should not have.

 

[Solarflares]

Yeah, but on the same hand, if guitar resonance at stage volume was a good thing, we would have stuck with hollowbodies

Not at all Christopher.
I played with a 20Kw PA system in my day.
I had two 100W stacks behind me, but I couldn’t hear them.
There was 3Kw of side-fills to my right, and 2Kw of front monitors, with a drummer to my left, who had 1KW of stereo side-fills.
Every night was a battle to stop my Strat leaping out of my hands, and finding a spot onstage where I could hear enough to play correctly with the band.
How Alex Lifeson managed with a 335 is beyond me!
On my stage, a 335 would be howling louder than any note I attempted.

I learned that thick Poly finishes (‘79 black Fender) helped to deaden the guitar, and whilst the bedroom boys would consider it a dull instrument - it would do the job much better than something more vibrant.
So, if you pick up a touring pro’s guitar, and wonder why they would play something so dead - just 10 seconds onstage would explain why.

 

[Chistopher]

But each guitar is unique, and there is no set positive outcome.

If Average Joe guitar player knew about this, the guitar market would be in shambles. A "better" guitar pickup is not necessarily better for your specific guitar. A "better" speaker may not agree with your specific cab.

 

[Sam SG]

Ive allways found that the guitars that sound best unplugged end up the best guitars period. Sonetine you like the pickups and you got a total winner. Othertimes you may have to swap them out( ie too hot...usually the case for me) but the best unplugged seem to ultimstly make the best plugged. The less resonant dead sounding axes are usually the ones you end up trying a bunch of pickups in searching for tone. Nowadays I just sell those ones.

 

[Chistopher]

Not at all Christopher.
I played with a 20Kw PA system in my day.
I had two 100W stacks behind me, but I couldn’t hear them.
There was 3Kw of side-fills to my right, and 2Kw of front monitors, with a drummer to my left, who had 1KW of stereo side-fills.
Every night was a battle to stop my Strat leaping out of my hands, and finding a spot onstage where I could hear enough to play correctly with the band.
How Alex Lifeson managed with a 335 is beyond me!
On my stage, a 335 would be howling louder than any note I attempted.

I learned that thick Poly finishes (‘79 black Fender) helped to deaden the guitar, and whilst the bedroom boys would consider it a dull instrument - it would do the job much better than something more vibrant.
So, if you pick up a touring pro’s guitar, and wonder why they would play something so dead - just 10 seconds onstage would explain why.

I think we are in agreement here, maybe I'm just not voicing it too well

 

[Solarflares]

I think we are in agreement here, maybe I'm just not voicing it too well

No. It’s cool.
What I’m saying is that speaker pressure waves vibrate the body of the guitar. We know that.
But there comes a point at which that ‘imbued’ resonance is actually inhibiting the instrument’s natural resonance, rather than embellishing it nicely.
Added to which, with your neck being 367hz resonant, and the body 231hz resonant, for example - we already have a complex set of figures which directly shape the guitar’s sound.
You might well find onstage that a C# rings clear, but your C is dead. But take it home and plug into a Blues Junior and it’s fine.

What I would take from that are two things.
Firstly, a band at volume are fighting this phenomenon all night. Simply put - there is no way to take your beautiful guitar-tone onto a big stage, and expect things will go well. There are ways and means though, but you don’t have time from venue to venue. You have to find a happy medium where it’s good enough, and you can put on a show.

Secondly, find out where your instrument is happiest. Don’t expect it to perform at it’s best in all environments and situations. A ‘58 Les Paul Junior DC with a P90 will be happiest at 5W, surrounded by furnishings, with a glass of wine or two. You will get incredible tones with the right amp - the stuff dreams are made of. It will sing and vibrate in your hands, and it’s like discovering the holy-grail.
But leave the house with it at your peril.