Odd Time Signatures
- Thread starter taphappy
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Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Well really it's just a matter of counting...
Take 4/4 - one, two three four count, quarter note gets the downbeat.
If you have something like 3/4, you have a one, two, three count, but the quarter note still gets the downbeat.
There are some really funky ones, though... for instance, in Meshuggah's song New Mellenium Cyanide Christ, the intro is 23/16 looped five times, and then one time of 13/16, to make 128 16th notes, or 8 measures in 4/4, which the cymbals/snare are playing in.
The other thing you may be referring to is polyrhythms... basically, these are two seperate time signatures laid over one another, but they match up eventually. The most common I think would be 3/4 over 4/4:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4...
1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1...
As you can see, they start off fine, but then are mismatched until they come back around in the 3rd measure in 4/4 (4th measure in 3/4). Again, those can get really complicated as well.
This was a really simplified version of it all, but that's the basics, as far as I understand it!
Well really it's just a matter of counting...
Take 4/4 - one, two three four count, quarter note gets the downbeat.
If you have something like 3/4, you have a one, two, three count, but the quarter note still gets the downbeat.
There are some really funky ones, though... for instance, in Meshuggah's song New Mellenium Cyanide Christ, the intro is 23/16 looped five times, and then one time of 13/16, to make 128 16th notes, or 8 measures in 4/4, which the cymbals/snare are playing in.
The other thing you may be referring to is polyrhythms... basically, these are two seperate time signatures laid over one another, but they match up eventually. The most common I think would be 3/4 over 4/4:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4...
1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1...
As you can see, they start off fine, but then are mismatched until they come back around in the 3rd measure in 4/4 (4th measure in 3/4). Again, those can get really complicated as well.
This was a really simplified version of it all, but that's the basics, as far as I understand it!
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
So, what about them don't you understand? Most odd time signatures are basically "mixed" meters of some kind, although the 5/4s & 5/8s are often counted in 5 rather than a grouping of 2 + 3 or 3 + 2... now what I mean by that:
Time signatures - the top value of the signature is the # of beats per measure, the bottom value represents the duration of the beat (ie. 4 = quarter note, 8 = eighth note, etc...)
Odd time signatures are those that don't break straight down into triple or duple meters... 3/4 & 6/8 being typical triple meters (although 6/8 can be felt as triple or duple meter...) and 2/4 & 4/4 being typical duple meters.
An odd meter like 7/8 or 13/8 can be interpreted in a number of ways... It all comes down to which beats are accented. 7/8 could be counted 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 or 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 or 1-2 1-2-3 1-2. Or any other grouping of beats that adds up to 7... Same thing for 13/8... 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 1-2 is common, or maybe 1-2 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 (which is kind of like 5/8+8/8).
As long as they add up to 13...
Then you have compound mixed meters (my personal favorite). They are groupings of different mixed meters, such as:
7/8+5/8+13/8 (7/8 + 6/8):
1-2-3 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 1-2 | 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 1-2
See how that works? Lots of fun especially when you come with an odd meter that has a crazy groove and you try to show your drummer & bassist! :eek13:
Hope that helps!
EDIT: Awww... someone beat me to the punch! DAMN!
--Nightrunner
So, what about them don't you understand? Most odd time signatures are basically "mixed" meters of some kind, although the 5/4s & 5/8s are often counted in 5 rather than a grouping of 2 + 3 or 3 + 2... now what I mean by that:
Time signatures - the top value of the signature is the # of beats per measure, the bottom value represents the duration of the beat (ie. 4 = quarter note, 8 = eighth note, etc...)
Odd time signatures are those that don't break straight down into triple or duple meters... 3/4 & 6/8 being typical triple meters (although 6/8 can be felt as triple or duple meter...) and 2/4 & 4/4 being typical duple meters.
An odd meter like 7/8 or 13/8 can be interpreted in a number of ways... It all comes down to which beats are accented. 7/8 could be counted 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 or 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 or 1-2 1-2-3 1-2. Or any other grouping of beats that adds up to 7... Same thing for 13/8... 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 1-2 is common, or maybe 1-2 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 (which is kind of like 5/8+8/8).
As long as they add up to 13...
Then you have compound mixed meters (my personal favorite). They are groupings of different mixed meters, such as:
7/8+5/8+13/8 (7/8 + 6/8):
1-2-3 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 1-2 | 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 1-2
See how that works? Lots of fun especially when you come with an odd meter that has a crazy groove and you try to show your drummer & bassist! :eek13:
Hope that helps!
EDIT: Awww... someone beat me to the punch! DAMN!
--Nightrunner
Metalman_666
Well-known member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Crazy time signatures can be a real pain. Jeff and Nightrunner pretty much explained most of it, but for some simple examples take a look at these:
Tool - Schism: the opening/verse riff in the song alternates 5/8 and 7/8 bars.
System of a Down - Soil: the verse riff alternates 7/8 and 8/8 (4/4) bars.
Count out the beats on your hands using tapping and you will find you get a better grasp on the concept. Those two songs are a good starting point.
Crazy time signatures can be a real pain. Jeff and Nightrunner pretty much explained most of it, but for some simple examples take a look at these:
Tool - Schism: the opening/verse riff in the song alternates 5/8 and 7/8 bars.
System of a Down - Soil: the verse riff alternates 7/8 and 8/8 (4/4) bars.
Count out the beats on your hands using tapping and you will find you get a better grasp on the concept. Those two songs are a good starting point.
SpiderVenom
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Most time signatures in themselves aren't generally too challenging, after a bit of practice. Shifting through lots of signatures, on the other hand, can be very difficult. Dream Theater is the bleedingly obvious example.
Most time signatures in themselves aren't generally too challenging, after a bit of practice. Shifting through lots of signatures, on the other hand, can be very difficult. Dream Theater is the bleedingly obvious example.
Metalman_666
Well-known member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
So count out 4 beats slowly, then play two quicker beats in place of each beat in those original 4, then you have 8/8 time. Take away one of those shorter, quicker beats and you have 7/8.
Don't worry if you don't get all of this. A lot of people have trouble understand and counting out time signatures, it just takes practice. Take a listen to those songs a few posts back, they helped me figure this stuff out better.
Well, it would be four beats if you were counting 4/4 time, but since you're counting in 7/8, think of it as 4/4 time, in double time (8/8) minus one to get 7/8. You'd be playing 7 beats, where the 8th note gets the beat.taphappy said:So if I was playing in 7/8, I would play 7 8th notes in 4 beats? Sorry if I'm retarded.
So count out 4 beats slowly, then play two quicker beats in place of each beat in those original 4, then you have 8/8 time. Take away one of those shorter, quicker beats and you have 7/8.
Don't worry if you don't get all of this. A lot of people have trouble understand and counting out time signatures, it just takes practice. Take a listen to those songs a few posts back, they helped me figure this stuff out better.
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Ah that clears up some confusion. Is 5/4 4 beats or double time? BTW I listend to those two songs, they definitly sound odd. What songs do you recommend by Dream Theater that have odd time, I know there's alot:laugh2: ?
Metalman_666 said:
Ah that clears up some confusion. Is 5/4 4 beats or double time? BTW I listend to those two songs, they definitly sound odd. What songs do you recommend by Dream Theater that have odd time, I know there's alot:laugh2: ?
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Distorted1987
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Simplified a little:
Wouldn't 7/8 time just be 7 eighth notes but still standard timing counted like the following?
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 :|: 1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4
Simplified a little:
Wouldn't 7/8 time just be 7 eighth notes but still standard timing counted like the following?
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 :|: 1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4
J
Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Nope, it'd be...
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (and) 5 (and) 6 (and) 7 (and) :|
The numerator is how many counts you have, the denominator is which note duration (4 = quarter, 8 = eigth, 16 = 16th, etc...) gets the beat.
Distorted1987 said:
Nope, it'd be...
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (and) 5 (and) 6 (and) 7 (and) :|
The numerator is how many counts you have, the denominator is which note duration (4 = quarter, 8 = eigth, 16 = 16th, etc...) gets the beat.
Robbiedbee
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Pink Floyd's 'Money' is a good example. I'm not so hot on this kind of thing, but I know it's in either 7/4 or 7/8 timing. You can really hear how the weird sound comes out. Just listen to the opening little bass figure.
Then it goes to 4/4 for the solo.
Pink Floyd's 'Money' is a good example. I'm not so hot on this kind of thing, but I know it's in either 7/4 or 7/8 timing. You can really hear how the weird sound comes out. Just listen to the opening little bass figure.
Then it goes to 4/4 for the solo.
Metalman_666
Well-known member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Actually Jeff, I think you're both right in a sense. It helps (at least for me) to relate everything to 4/4 time, because it's so common. So you're correct in saying, assuming we're counting the 8th note getting the beat, that it would be:
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (and) 5 (and) 6 (and) 7 (and) :|
however, if we imagine it in common (4/4) time, Distorted would be right.
4/4 = 1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (rest) :|
7/8 = 1....2....3....4...5....6....7 :|
Jeff Dunne said:
Actually Jeff, I think you're both right in a sense. It helps (at least for me) to relate everything to 4/4 time, because it's so common. So you're correct in saying, assuming we're counting the 8th note getting the beat, that it would be:
1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (and) 5 (and) 6 (and) 7 (and) :|
however, if we imagine it in common (4/4) time, Distorted would be right.
4/4 = 1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (rest) :|
7/8 = 1....2....3....4...5....6....7 :|
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mind_transplant
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
This should help you with polyrhythms...
As for odd time signatures, everyone here is pointing you in the right direction. You probably already know a number of songs in unusual or shifting time signatures. "Money" is a good example, as are "Solisbury Hill" by Peter Gabriel and "Barracuda" by Heart. Just go count along to some old Genesis albums and you'll figure it all out.
This should help you with polyrhythms...
As for odd time signatures, everyone here is pointing you in the right direction. You probably already know a number of songs in unusual or shifting time signatures. "Money" is a good example, as are "Solisbury Hill" by Peter Gabriel and "Barracuda" by Heart. Just go count along to some old Genesis albums and you'll figure it all out.
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Agreed... break things up into beat groupings or the compound mixed meters will floor you.
Besides that, if you split stuff up into smaller groupings based on where the accents fall, it can help you 1) get to the point of just "feeling" the groove a lot quicker, and 2) explain the counting to other musicians quicker and easier.
Why would you want to think in e-and-uh's anyway? :yell:
Check out the album "Rust in Peace" (Lucretia...) by Megadeth for some more "straight-forward" odd meters... If you want compound odd meters, check out "Scenes From a Memory - Metropolis 2" or "Metropolis" or "Erotomania" or any other number of Dream Theater songs/albums!
--Nightrunner
nuntius said:
Agreed... break things up into beat groupings or the compound mixed meters will floor you.
Besides that, if you split stuff up into smaller groupings based on where the accents fall, it can help you 1) get to the point of just "feeling" the groove a lot quicker, and 2) explain the counting to other musicians quicker and easier.
Why would you want to think in e-and-uh's anyway? :yell:
Check out the album "Rust in Peace" (Lucretia...) by Megadeth for some more "straight-forward" odd meters... If you want compound odd meters, check out "Scenes From a Memory - Metropolis 2" or "Metropolis" or "Erotomania" or any other number of Dream Theater songs/albums!
--Nightrunner
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Distorted1987
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
He was just explaining ways to count. It doesn't matter either way. You could just count to 7 there if you wanted, but its probably easier the way he showed it.
taphappy said:
He was just explaining ways to count. It doesn't matter either way. You could just count to 7 there if you wanted, but its probably easier the way he showed it.
