Distorted1987
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
You could put an accent anywhere you wanted to couldn't you?
You could put an accent anywhere you wanted to couldn't you?
Odd Time Signatures
- Thread starter taphappy
- Start date
fuzzyratfarts
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Money by Pink Floyd is in 7/8. Listening to it makes everything seem easy to me. Some songs in odd time sound weird to the untrained ear but songs such as Money are very groovable.
Money by Pink Floyd is in 7/8. Listening to it makes everything seem easy to me. Some songs in odd time sound weird to the untrained ear but songs such as Money are very groovable.
Metalman_666
Well-known member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Yes, you could. Just as long as you keep in mind that where you place the accent can have a big effect on how a song/riff feels.
Distorted1987 said:
Yes, you could. Just as long as you keep in mind that where you place the accent can have a big effect on how a song/riff feels.
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
You can definitely accent wherever, depending on the feel you want to establish.
Breaking the mixed meter into groupings based on accents just feels more natural than accenting "against the grain" so to speak. Like if I want to have a 3 feel followed by either a 4 feel or 2 - 2's feel, I'd count it 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3 1-2 1-2. If I want a 4 or 2-2's feel followed by a 3 feel, then I'd count it 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 or 1-2 1-2 1-2-3.
It just keeps it all straight in my brain while playing. Also lets me do things like add galloping and other stuff during the mixed meters to help with the accentuations. Fun stuff!
Maybe I could provide a few clips demonstrating what I'm talking about... not possible right this second though! I'm actually going to go watch a friend's band play tonight.
--Nightrunner
Distorted1987 said:
You can definitely accent wherever, depending on the feel you want to establish.
Breaking the mixed meter into groupings based on accents just feels more natural than accenting "against the grain" so to speak. Like if I want to have a 3 feel followed by either a 4 feel or 2 - 2's feel, I'd count it 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3 1-2 1-2. If I want a 4 or 2-2's feel followed by a 3 feel, then I'd count it 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 or 1-2 1-2 1-2-3.
It just keeps it all straight in my brain while playing. Also lets me do things like add galloping and other stuff during the mixed meters to help with the accentuations. Fun stuff!
Maybe I could provide a few clips demonstrating what I'm talking about... not possible right this second though! I'm actually going to go watch a friend's band play tonight.
--Nightrunner
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Alright... here's a link to an example of a fairly straightforward compound mixed meter complete with annoying metronome click:
EDIT: it's called "OddMeter1"
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4273876
Keep in mind it was recorded through my practice rig (an ancient Digitech GSP 21 Pro going direct into my computer & not even a really tweaked preset...) & it's after quite a few rum and cokes! :friday:
Starts with 4 measures of 3/8 - metronome only
Then:
The meters are broken down like this:
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 7/8 ||
7/8 + 8/8 | 7/8 + 8/8 || repeat a million times...
I count it like this:
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 || 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4
then repeat the last figure a million times...
It sounds a lot cooler in context & with the full band!
--Nightrunner
taphappy said:
Alright... here's a link to an example of a fairly straightforward compound mixed meter complete with annoying metronome click:
EDIT: it's called "OddMeter1"
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4273876
Keep in mind it was recorded through my practice rig (an ancient Digitech GSP 21 Pro going direct into my computer & not even a really tweaked preset...) & it's after quite a few rum and cokes! :friday:
Starts with 4 measures of 3/8 - metronome only
Then:
The meters are broken down like this:
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 6/8 ||
7/8 + 5/8 | 7/8 + 7/8 ||
7/8 + 8/8 | 7/8 + 8/8 || repeat a million times...
I count it like this:
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 || 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3
1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 || 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4
then repeat the last figure a million times...
It sounds a lot cooler in context & with the full band!
--Nightrunner
Last edited:
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
I put up another example of some odd meter stuff (called "Arcane 13"):
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4276915
It's mostly in 13/8, counted 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2, so it's basically alternating measures of 7/8 and 6/8--not really all that fancy.
The harmonized melody at the end is over a straight 7/8 feel... 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 ... etc. etc.
I recorded this like 6 years ago with some bad tones & cheesy MIDI drums straight into my SB Live - long before I learned how to make a good-sounding multitrack recording. I'm glad I'm a guitarist and not a drummer!
I'll see if I can find a recording of some crazier compound mixed meter & upload it too. The one I'm thinking of does a sort of Dream Theateresque beat subtraction thing that's sorta fun!
--Nightrunner
I put up another example of some odd meter stuff (called "Arcane 13"):
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4276915
It's mostly in 13/8, counted 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2, so it's basically alternating measures of 7/8 and 6/8--not really all that fancy.
The harmonized melody at the end is over a straight 7/8 feel... 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 ... etc. etc.
I recorded this like 6 years ago with some bad tones & cheesy MIDI drums straight into my SB Live - long before I learned how to make a good-sounding multitrack recording. I'm glad I'm a guitarist and not a drummer!
I'll see if I can find a recording of some crazier compound mixed meter & upload it too. The one I'm thinking of does a sort of Dream Theateresque beat subtraction thing that's sorta fun!
--Nightrunner
Last edited:
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Uploaded an excerpt of the crazier compound mixed meter - It's more of an exercise because it's not very melodic. Called it "Compound Craziness."
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4276999
The meter changes from 15/8 to 13/8 to 11/8 to 10/8 then repeats.
I counted it:
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2 | 1-2-3-4
Hopefully someone will find all of this helpful or at least somewhat interesting!
--Nightrunner
Uploaded an excerpt of the crazier compound mixed meter - It's more of an exercise because it's not very melodic. Called it "Compound Craziness."
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=583412&songID=4276999
The meter changes from 15/8 to 13/8 to 11/8 to 10/8 then repeats.
I counted it:
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2 | 1-2-3-4
Hopefully someone will find all of this helpful or at least somewhat interesting!
--Nightrunner
Last edited:
moog1000
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
I will have to disagree on this one!
nder:
Let me say something before I start - time signiatures are just ways of dividing up bars for transcription purposes, so you're open to write a song down in just about any time you like. Whether it makes it readable is another matter...
Back to the point, Money really implies a 7/4 feel. Count as the song plays, you can definitely make out 7 beats. 7/8 wouldn't fit unless you were playing double-time in a tempo half the speed of the original, which means you have double the number of notes in a bar to read!
I'll elaborate:
7/4 = 7 quarter notes
7/8 = 7 8th notes.
If you add 8th notes to 7/4 and map the two against each other:
1-a-2-a-3-a-4-a-5-a-6-a-7-a
1-2-3-4-5-6-7
If you wrote the song in 7/8 you would have the riff stradling 2 bars which isn't vey nice, unless you had the tempo halved with it played double time, which again isn't that nice. What gives it away is the riff - if you can count more than 7 8th notes (using the beat) in one rotation of a riff then it's probably not 7/8. It just so happens you can count 14 8th notes here which is 14/8 or 7/4.
That's explained really bad, but you'll have to trust. I saw a documentry about DSOTM where Gilmour said the song was in 7/8, so even he gets it wrong!
fuzzyratfarts said:
I will have to disagree on this one!
nder:Let me say something before I start - time signiatures are just ways of dividing up bars for transcription purposes, so you're open to write a song down in just about any time you like. Whether it makes it readable is another matter...
Back to the point, Money really implies a 7/4 feel. Count as the song plays, you can definitely make out 7 beats. 7/8 wouldn't fit unless you were playing double-time in a tempo half the speed of the original, which means you have double the number of notes in a bar to read!
I'll elaborate:
7/4 = 7 quarter notes
7/8 = 7 8th notes.
If you add 8th notes to 7/4 and map the two against each other:
1-a-2-a-3-a-4-a-5-a-6-a-7-a
1-2-3-4-5-6-7
If you wrote the song in 7/8 you would have the riff stradling 2 bars which isn't vey nice, unless you had the tempo halved with it played double time, which again isn't that nice. What gives it away is the riff - if you can count more than 7 8th notes (using the beat) in one rotation of a riff then it's probably not 7/8. It just so happens you can count 14 8th notes here which is 14/8 or 7/4.
That's explained really bad, but you'll have to trust. I saw a documentry about DSOTM where Gilmour said the song was in 7/8, so even he gets it wrong!
ratherdashing
Kablamminator
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Great thread!
I always thought of Money as being in mixed meter 4/4:3/4. You're right though: it's not 7/8.
The drum beats are the key to determining time signature. If the song were really 7/8, Nick Mason would be doing half as many kick drum hits. The prototypical rock beat, variations of which appear in almost every rock/pop/metal song in existence, is kick on quarter notes 1 and 3, snare on quarter notes 2 and 4.
Great thread!
moog1000 said:I will have to disagree on this one!
Let me say something before I start - time signiatures are just ways of dividing up bars for transcription purposes, so you're open to write a song down in just about any time you like. Whether it makes it readable is another matter...
Back to the point, Money really implies a 7/4 feel. Count as the song plays, you can definitely make out 7 beats. 7/8 wouldn't fit unless you were playing double-time in a tempo half the speed of the original, which means you have double the number of notes in a bar to read!
I'll elaborate:
7/4 = 7 quarter notes
7/8 = 7 8th notes.
If you add 8th notes to 7/4 and map the two against each other:
1-a-2-a-3-a-4-a-5-a-6-a-7-a
1-2-3-4-5-6-7
If you wrote the song in 7/8 you would have the riff stradling 2 bars which isn't vey nice, unless you had the tempo halved with it played double time, which again isn't that nice. What gives it away is the riff - if you can count more than 7 8th notes (using the beat) in one rotation of a riff then it's probably not 7/8. It just so happens you can count 14 8th notes here which is 14/8 or 7/4.
That's explained really bad, but you'll have to trust. I saw a documentry about DSOTM where Gilmour said the song was in 7/8, so even he gets it wrong!
I always thought of Money as being in mixed meter 4/4:3/4. You're right though: it's not 7/8.
The drum beats are the key to determining time signature. If the song were really 7/8, Nick Mason would be doing half as many kick drum hits. The prototypical rock beat, variations of which appear in almost every rock/pop/metal song in existence, is kick on quarter notes 1 and 3, snare on quarter notes 2 and 4.
moog1000
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
That's a better explaination! I think it would be easier to count, as you say, in a mixed meter of 4/4 and 3/4, but for transcribing purposes, I think most people would right it out in 7/4, as it would half the bar lines and also, as it's one musical phrase, it's good to keep it all group together nicely.
That's a better explaination! I think it would be easier to count, as you say, in a mixed meter of 4/4 and 3/4, but for transcribing purposes, I think most people would right it out in 7/4, as it would half the bar lines and also, as it's one musical phrase, it's good to keep it all group together nicely.
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Yes, a very interesting and helpful thread indeed
Everyone's comments have been helpful..
I come from South-Eastern Europe where you can alternate between 7/8, 9/8 11/8 and all that crazy stuff when you are 5 years old
For example, a common way to count 7/8 would be 123 12 12...it sounds very cool.
There's great songs out there in odd signatures..Someone asked about a suggestion for a Dream Theater song.. Well, there are very few which are not odd
Yes, a very interesting and helpful thread indeed
Everyone's comments have been helpful..
I come from South-Eastern Europe where you can alternate between 7/8, 9/8 11/8 and all that crazy stuff when you are 5 years old
For example, a common way to count 7/8 would be 123 12 12...it sounds very cool.
There's great songs out there in odd signatures..Someone asked about a suggestion for a Dream Theater song.. Well, there are very few which are not odd
DankStar
Her Little Mojo Minion
Re: Odd Time Signatures
I always say I play in 4/4, then I go to program the drums and everything's all messed up.
My problem is, I think a lot of my riffs are set up on a "shuffle" where it's like almost 4/4, but a standard 4/4 beat is slightly off from my riff and I need to do one of those jazzy "shuffles" to it. Usually there's a button, but I don't know what it really does.
I always say I play in 4/4, then I go to program the drums and everything's all messed up.
My problem is, I think a lot of my riffs are set up on a "shuffle" where it's like almost 4/4, but a standard 4/4 beat is slightly off from my riff and I need to do one of those jazzy "shuffles" to it. Usually there's a button, but I don't know what it really does.
Tux789
Medicated Cryptologist
moog1000
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Yes, it makes me wonder just how limited we are in mainstream western music, where everything seems to revolve round 4. Just imagine if back in the day they decided 5 would make a good bar length...then we'd be moaning about 5 being too standard probably.....
Yes, a very interesting and helpful thread indeed
Everyone's comments have been helpful..
I come from South-Eastern Europe where you can alternate between 7/8, 9/8 11/8 and all that crazy stuff when you are 5 years old
For example, a common way to count 7/8 would be 123 12 12...it sounds very cool.
There's great songs out there in odd signatures..Someone asked about a suggestion for a Dream Theater song.. Well, there are very few which are not odd
Yes, it makes me wonder just how limited we are in mainstream western music, where everything seems to revolve round 4. Just imagine if back in the day they decided 5 would make a good bar length...then we'd be moaning about 5 being too standard probably.....
Re: Odd Time Signatures
Yeah , sometimes I think about that too. And the diatonic system. I mean it's great, but I wonder what our music would look like if it wasn't adopted as standard. There are of course parts of the world where different systems are used, but it sounds weird. At least to me. Probably because I am used to the western scales...
daemon barbeque
Zuhahahaologist
Re: Odd Time Signatures
like the topic name easyly explains ,the western world desribes that as "odd" ,actually ,it is not!!!It's just more rich in any aspect and really easier to create new emotions.
Whenever i hear TOOL ,DT ,Nevermore ,people ask me why don't i hear to normal music(all of them are metalheads ,so not pop kids).This explains everything.Only musicians and people on drugs are hearing "unregular" rythms.It is not easy to consume ,and understands for western community.And if you go to east , everybody becomes "genius" ,since they can count everytime till 22 or 7 or 11 ,not 8 hehehehe:smokin:
Yeah you're right.I had many problems to teach many drummers how to play a 9/8 correctly.It seemd like they always played a 7/8 after a 9/8 to compansade it.
like the topic name easyly explains ,the western world desribes that as "odd" ,actually ,it is not!!!It's just more rich in any aspect and really easier to create new emotions.
Whenever i hear TOOL ,DT ,Nevermore ,people ask me why don't i hear to normal music(all of them are metalheads ,so not pop kids).This explains everything.Only musicians and people on drugs are hearing "unregular" rythms.It is not easy to consume ,and understands for western community.And if you go to east , everybody becomes "genius" ,since they can count everytime till 22 or 7 or 11 ,not 8 hehehehe:smokin:
Nightrunner
New member
Re: Odd Time Signatures
I think the dilemma is definitely a result of the way that all the "pop" music embraces straightforward rhythms. There was a time when "odd" meters were quite common in "Western" music--you just have to turn the clock back about a century! :bandit:
Symphonic composers used odd meters all the time, especially during the early 20th century. Maybe my fascination with and desire to hear/write/play music that has more than the standard duple or triple meters came from my background as a violist. I did play in orchestras from age 10 through my freshman year in college, and I've always loved symphonic/string music, especially the post-Romantic & 20th Century stuff like Shostakovich, Bartok, Schubert, Schoenberg, etc... Wicked strange tonalities in some of their creations, but the KA phrases are still there to be embraced.
It's just a little harder for most casual listeners to really grasp the heart and soul of that kind of music. I think this is the same reason that modern progressive & metal bands that use a lot of odd meters aren't embraced by more non-musicians. It's too bad that the majority of our music is geared towards the dance market or easy listening. I guess thinking while listening is just too much for most people. What a shame! :smack:
--Nightrunner
I think the dilemma is definitely a result of the way that all the "pop" music embraces straightforward rhythms. There was a time when "odd" meters were quite common in "Western" music--you just have to turn the clock back about a century! :bandit:
Symphonic composers used odd meters all the time, especially during the early 20th century. Maybe my fascination with and desire to hear/write/play music that has more than the standard duple or triple meters came from my background as a violist. I did play in orchestras from age 10 through my freshman year in college, and I've always loved symphonic/string music, especially the post-Romantic & 20th Century stuff like Shostakovich, Bartok, Schubert, Schoenberg, etc... Wicked strange tonalities in some of their creations, but the KA phrases are still there to be embraced.
It's just a little harder for most casual listeners to really grasp the heart and soul of that kind of music. I think this is the same reason that modern progressive & metal bands that use a lot of odd meters aren't embraced by more non-musicians. It's too bad that the majority of our music is geared towards the dance market or easy listening. I guess thinking while listening is just too much for most people. What a shame! :smack:
--Nightrunner
