OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

[d1dsj]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

You've already had loads of ideas but why not take your guitars and go amp hunting? I know it's an expensive option but at least that way you'll find out whether or not the guitars can actually get the sounds you want. Even if you don't buy an amp you can at least test a sh!tload without spending any money.

 

[AlexR]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Have you played other guitars through your rig....like a stock LP or SG
Have you played your guitars through other amps - like modern marshalls or mesa etc.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I mean *DOES that have to do with the speaker ohms?

Not really. Although the connection is to the impedance selctor, it affects how much voltage is being recycled from the output of the amp back through the power amp. That in turn affects the upper mids and treble response of the amp in a subtle way at gig volume.



I have an all maple Charvel, that I use a Tone Zone on.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

DUUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've gotta change the name of this thread to "OK, It's gotta be THE AMP!... and a little bit of the guitar as well"

I just dug out my Randal RH50 T from the closet (50 watt gain monster) fired her up... and EVERYTHING SOUNDED JUST FINE!!! I mean, you could definitely hear that the guitars are maple. It was a little on the bright side even with a 250k pot, but I'm playing a pretty bright pickup, and I don't think it was anything that would matter in a live situation. I could switch out the pickup in that guitar and probably find something that was perfectly suitable with that Randall setup.

Tonally though, the 800 eats that thing for breakfast. Really. No comparison. So I've gotta get that friggin amp modded.

I'm sayin mod the 800, get some celestion 65 speakers to experiement with, then get some Tone in my Zone or another DARK ARTICULATE pup and I should be good. That's at least the way I see it in my mind.

Needless to say that guitar sounds just fine -even great perhaps -through my fender hot rod deluxe. And, with the extra tone and bite of the 800, I should be able to get exactly the sound I'm looking for. I'm not just going based on conjecture. I literally can hear my dream tone in that 800, with my maple/ rosewood guitar, underneath all that brightness. It's very close. Also, I've played those guitars through TONS of different amps:


About a year ago my older brother (who is a killer bass player by the way) and I decided we needed new amps. I had been rocking on the Hot Rod deluxe for a number of years. I was playing on the gain channel and producing what I and others thought was an awesome tone, but I needed more grunt and articulation in the disitortion area and I just wasn't jiving with any of the pedals I tried. We took our guitars, went to Chicago and spent 3 days playing everything we could get our hands on; Orange, Mesa, Fender, Vox, Randall, Marshall etc. etc. It's true that I have not tried any of the newer friggin bloody expensive amps that seem to be all the rage these days (Engl and others), but I have a feeling that those amps wouldn't have spoken to me anyway. The 800 spoke to me and that's what I came home with.

I only buy stuff that speaks to me.

I think my situation is probably pretty normal. I mean, TONS of players have had to mod their amps and other gear throughout history to achieve the tones they wanted. I can hear that sound in that amp with those guitars. If I can't do it with my current setup, then I should know in a month or two -after I've modded that amp to a suitable degree, and tried a few other pickups in that guitar and possibly some other speakers as well.

Thanks to all of you for your support and advice. I've got an appointment to get the 800 modded on Wednesday. After that, I'll but a Tone Zone and report back! I'm also going to spring for a cheap epi less paul in the mean time, so I can experiment with some Mahogany and the shorter scale with my low tunings.

Please do feel free to keep the comments coming. They have been a tremendous help

PEACE!!!

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Oh yeah, I just want to add that I had that Randall raging just now at 11 o'clock and everything sounded just fine. Even at 2-3 o'clock -everything just fine...

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

but I have a feeling that those amps wouldn't have spoken to me anyway. The 800 spoke to me and that's what I came home with

.

I understand perfectly, I'm a Marshall player too.

If you get a Tone Zone you may want to consider the the Airzone version. Same pickup but with the "air" mod which warms it up a bit more. The TZ still has a shiney top end. Or get the Duncan Custom Custom with the A2 magnet. I went with a Tone Zone back in the day mainly because of the double cream look of the possible choices. I mean it worked wonders but the Airzone wasn't around yet.

On edit: Come to think of it I have no idea how A2 pickups would work with low tunings????

 

[AlexR]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Look at tubes for the amp maybe too. This could be an easy fix if you've got some that maybe sit on the bright side of normal. Are the poweramp tubes compatible with any other types (I'm assuming its EL34's in there). Or maybe the 1st preamp tube is another place to look at a swap.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Look at tubes for the amp maybe too. This could be an easy fix if you've got some that maybe sit on the bright side of normal. Are the poweramp tubes compatible with any other types (I'm assuming its EL34's in there). Or maybe the 1st preamp tube is another place to look at a swap.

Great suggestion. My friend just gave me a sack full of pre amp tubes the other day. Right now the amp is set up with 2 JJ El34's for power and 3 Sovtek lps in the pres.

So far I have only experiemented with changing out V1. I put a tung sol in v1 and found it to be rather dark and a bit glassy. Still the brightness/ harshness persisted. I also put a Shuguang large plate tube in there from the Tube Store (called their "preferred series".) The articulation on that tube was kick ass! It was like it put a corset around my tone. That bass was frickin floor thumping! But it also made it more bright! AAAHHH!!! So I took it out and right now it's just back to the 3 sovteks. I have a feeling that those Sovteks are some pretty bright (maybe kind of crummy) pre amp tubes.

Here's what's in the bag -all 12ax7/ ecc83's:

2 JJ's
2 Electro Harmonix
1 Bugera
1 Tung Tol
1 Shuguang "preferred series" (some 12ax7 specially made for the tube store)
1 Groove Tube

I should have mentioned earlier that my Randall is actually powered with 2 6CA7's -which as I'm sure you know are interchangeable with EL34's. This could be something to try to. My Randal has 2 6CA7's and V1 JJ, V2 Electro harmonix and V3 JJ. I could actually just take out a jj from the pre of my Randall and then run my Marshall on all JJ's, but I am confident the brightness/ harshness issue with the still persist. I really think it's a fundamental change that needs to be made with that amps circuitry and not just the choice of tubes...

 

[The Guitar]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Have you also tried rolling back on the tone knob(s) on the guitars a little and or cut back on the gain some at higher volumes? With those Mat's are you also on the Westone forum?

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

.

I understand perfectly, I'm a Marshall player too.

If you get a Tone Zone you may want to consider the the Airzone version. Same pickup but with the "air" mod which warms it up a bit more. The TZ still has a shiney top end. Or get the Duncan Custom Custom with the A2 magnet. I went with a Tone Zone back in the day mainly because of the double cream look of the possible choices. I mean it worked wonders but the Airzone wasn't around yet.

On edit: Come to think of it I have no idea how A2 pickups would work with low tunings????

Very good to know man. I will indeed look into this "Air Zone".

I have been wondering how Alnico 2 would work my low tunings as well. So far Alnico 5 and Alnico 4 have kicked major ass! I think I'm really an alnico 5 man myself. Something about that magnet just speaks to me.

I actually came across a pretty stellar Alnico 4 pup about a week ago. Really tight and clear. Frickin awesome pup, but I think I might like A 5 a bit more. A4 felt a bit too even in it's frequency response for me to really be as expressive as I wanted to. Do you know what I'm saying? I just really need some imbalance in my life! Haha! But seriously, I like a bit of an exaggerated eq for some reason -of course slanted towards the mids/ lower trebs in some way. AND I hate compression. This works against my situation because of course, as we all know, the hotter a pickup is wound, the darker it is (which is what I need), but the more compressed it is also. Vice versa, a lesser wound pickup is brighter and less compressed. Also, I heard that an Alnico 8 wound really hot can work wonders in maple. Any thoughts on that?

Heres how I understand it"

A2- boosts mids but adds compression
A4 -Mainly flat/ even frequency response
A5 -scoops mids, boosts treble and bass
A8 -I don't know what A 8 does... All I know is that I don't like ceramic.

A5 has been a pleasure in the low tunings. Tight bottom end. No problems with that whatsoever. I've heard that maple is a really tight wood though and my maples are definitely tight sounding.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Have you also tried rolling back on the tone knob(s) on the guitars a little and or cut back on the gain some at higher volumes? With those Mat's are you also on the Westone forum?

OH yeah man. have definitely done all I can with rolling that tone knob down and the gain as well. I've had that amp and guitar combo adjusted in every which way possible, and I'm pretty confident that when I go get my all mahogany epi les paul tomorrow and plug into the 800, that I'm going to have a similar brightness harshness problem going on. I spoke with an amp modder guy today -who I think is in California -and he told me that I'm fighting an uphill battle with that amp, but that the mods I'm planning on doing should take care of my problem just nicely. We'll see...

And yeah, I am on the Westone forum as well. I pitched my problem to the guys over there -not in such detail, but they did suggest some pup changes as well.

 

[erksin]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Sounds like the common denominator is you. What picks do you use?

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Sounds like the common denominator is you.


Well I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I use Dunlop Tortex -orange and yellow ones - I think they're 62 and 71...

 

[erksin]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I meant that you've gone through pretty much every modification you can think of to your rig and the issue persists - the only thing that hasn't changed was the guy playing through it. So maybe you have a bright attack when playing - the interface between you and the guitar is the pick so...

 

[some_dude]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I went through a lot of pickups and sold a number of amps before I finally figured out that I hated the sound of my cab.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I meant that you've gone through pretty much every modification you can think of to your rig and the issue persists - the only thing that hasn't changed was the guy playing through it. So maybe you have a bright attack when playing - the interface between you and the guitar is the pick so...

I use a lot of variety in my right hand technique, but I am definitely open to pick suggestions if you have some!

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I went through a lot of pickups and sold a number of amps before I finally figured out that I hated the sound of my cab.

Right on. Good advice. Yeah, I'm looking into that situation right now, but really I'm thinkin the cab is fine. Gotta be that big ol' bright 800 is what i'm thinkin...

 

[some_dude]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Right on. Good advice. Yeah, I'm looking into that situation right now, but really I'm thinkin the cab is fine. Gotta be that big ol' bright 800 is what i'm thinkin...

The 800 wasn't voiced with V30s in mind and V30s produce a big old ice pick that stabs you in the ear. Some amps tend to exaggerate the ice pick effect more than others, although I'm not sure if the 800 is one of them as I've never used one with V30s before.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

The 800 wasn't voiced with V30s in mind and V30s produce a big old ice pick that stabs you in the ear. Some amps tend to exaggerate the ice pick effect more than others, although I'm not sure if the 800 is one of them as I've never used one with V30s before.

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH......... I see... very revelatory information. Have you got any suggestions on which speakers to try out then? I've heard that the 800 was actually voiced around the Celstion 65's. Or maybe the speakers were voiced for that amp. I don't know, but I have heard that they are supposed to do WONDERS with that amp...

 

[some_dude]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I know the JCM800 cab came with G12T-65, G12M-70, G12T-75, G12-80, G12H-100 and towards the end of the 80s the Marshall Vintage (which sound different from Vintage 30s).

I'm not really a Marshall guy, so not totally sure on what speaker the JCM800 was first voiced around and if it changed over the years as Marshall changed the speakers loaded in their cabs. That said, there's plenty of Marshall dudes on this forum and I suspect at least one of them will know the answer.