OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

[T.M.A.]

Guys I'm having a long standing case of the HARD HARSH BRIGHTNESS and I think It's high time I changed guitars...

For some reason I just fell in love with these Matsumoku Westones (specifically the Speectrum ST http://www.westone.info/spectrumst.html). The necks are to die for. They stay in tune like nobody's business AND the 25.5 in scale neck is SOO FRIGGIN AWESOME for my drop tuning (C Standard and C Standard with Bb on the bottom). I bought 2 of them and I have 2 other matsumokus but... THEY ARE MAPLE MONSTERS!!! Hard Maple body, maple neck, rosewood fretboard. Either the body or the neck or just both have GOT to be the problem.

In your bedroom, on 1 with the Master on 9, they sound GODLY!!! But at giggin volumes... HARD, HARSH, CLANGING -Like some one is taking a broad sword to a telephone pole. Even when I ditch my effects chain and just go straight into the amp, above 1 is hard, hard, harsh city...Through Fender amps you can get away with it, but with a Vertical Input 1984 JCM 800 2204 with 2 vintage 30's in an Avatar Closed Back Contemporary Cab... no way man. Go above 1 and everyone will be leaving the room.

What's more is that I have now officially tried 9 different pickups in 3 of these guitars and it's all the same. I can list them if you insist nder::

Full shred (regular spacing)
TB Custom
TB Custom/ 59 hybrid
GFS VEH (which actually turned out to be the most tolerable at higher volumes...with a 250k pot)
Warman Destroyer
Warman Destroyer with the alnico 5 mag from the VEH
Entwistle HDN (Neck in the Bridge position)
Some stock epiphone pickup just for fun
A beautiful hand made, custom wound Alnico 4 PU
&
of course the stock 6.5 output piece of ****...

I also have a JB coming in the mail and an RS kit that is supposed to help. AND, if you guys insist I will try the frickin Screaming Demon...

I only play on the bridge humbucker. I took the neck pups out and just leave the hole be...


It might sound a bit different, but at the end of the day it's the same old thing: A HARD HARSH CLANGING blundering warrior sound. Even if I turn the tone all the way down on my guitar, the treble, and mids all the way down on my amp, and turn the bass all the way up, it's still the same thing. It might be woofier or muddier or whatever, but it's still the same overall hard friggin sucky tone/ sound/ whatever you want to call it...


Yes I've tried raising and lowering the pups.
Yes I've tried different pre amp tubes.
Yes I have of course tried a plethora of different string brands and gauges.
Yes my speakers are in phase and wired correctly.
No there is nothing wrong with my amp
and YES... I have changed the tonepot to 250k CTS, but still...


So what's next guys? Suggestions on guitars to try? Obviously the default option here would be Les Paul, but I'm tuning LOW and I'm concerned with how the 24,75 in scale will handle those tunings. My tone might suck right now at higher volumes, but man I've got those suckers sounding TIGHT!!! That Bb is in your face!! I'm telling you, at 1 it's just pure heaven to me...

I've got a buddy at the guitar center up the road. I was thinkin I could take him one of my westones and basically do a clean trade in for a cheap, all Mahogany guitar with a rosewood fretboard, just so I could at least experiment with the sound of a darker wood. There was an SG that I bonded with there that I had him put on hold for me. It was a cheap bolt on Epiphone, but it was punchy as hell and I'll be ditching the pups and electronics anyway. It probably wouldn't be my new baby, but it might work and at least give me a better idea of what's going on...The other option (which would be AWESOME if it worked) is to either make or acquire an all Mahogany body (or some other variety of dark wood) and slap one of my beautiful Matsumoku necks (maple with rosewood fretboard) on there and give it a whirl. That of course would be the ideal. Wouldn't have to worry about getting used to a different instrument or neck scale or the songs changing much...

Let me know...

Thanks guys... :flowers1:

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Some guys get a brighter tone naturally. It's in the fingers I guess. If your one of them, you have to compensate with warmer sounding guitars and/or amps/ speakers.

The other option (which would be AWESOME if it worked) is to either make or acquire an all Mahogany body (or some other variety of dark wood) and slap one of my beautiful Matsumoku necks (maple with rosewood fretboard) on there and give it a whirl

On edit:Well if your getting too bright of tone you need to avoid maple neck shafts. It not always the body wood. Think a rosewood neck shaft and a rosewood finger board.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Some guys get a brighter tone naturally. It's in the fingers I guess. If your one of them, you have to compensate with warmer sounding guitars and/or amps/ speakers.



On edit:Well if your getting too bright of tone you need to avoid maple neck shafts. It not always the body wood. Think a rosewood neck shaft and a rosewood finger board.

This is such a fantastic reply! Yes, I'm sure that I am one of those guys with "bright fingers". Thank you for taking the time to read my Goliath post!

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

The speakers could be an idea as well... Hmm... I've swapped one of the V30's for a k100. I've also just played through the k100. Same brightness deal. Maybe some 65's?...

 

[agentzero12]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Try a sonic stomp in the loop. It works as more if a shelf eq rather than a standard graphic eq. It will trim some brightness without making it sound dull. It can get there but doesn't have to. That would be my suggestion. Then you can keep the guitars.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

All new speakers are bright and harsh until well broken in. GBs and 65s are warmer than V30s-after they are broke in. Also JCM 800s are bright amps. Have the bright cap clipped. Also have the purple wire going to the impendence selector attached to the 8 ohm lug.

But I think you need a guitar with warmer woods too.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Try a sonic stomp in the loop. It works as more if a shelf eq rather than a standard graphic eq. It will trim some brightness without making it sound dull. It can get there but doesn't have to. That would be my suggestion. Then you can keep the guitars.

Yeah, I actually tried that and found it to be a tone killer. I think there is going to have to be one or more of 3 fundamental changes:

Speaker change
Mod the amp -which I didn't think of until now http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41006
Guitar change -obviously at least to try

but thanks for the suggestion...

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I read the thread on modding the 800. Those guys at Metro know their stuff. What the last poster said about the NFB on the 16 ohm lug with a lower value is correct. Stock its on the 4 ohm lug so just moving it to the 8 ohm lugs takes some edge off the presence. I have done this myself and it works.

So cut the bright cap, change to the 16 ohm or 8 ohm lug, and get warmer speakers as far as amp mods go.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I read the thread on modding the 800. Those guys at Metro know their stuff. What the last poster said about the NFB on the 16 ohm lug with a lower value is correct. Stock its on the 4 ohm lug so just moving it to the 8 ohm lugs takes some edge off the presence. I have done this myself and it works.

So cut the bright cap, change to the 16 ohm or 8 ohm lug, and get warmer speakers as far as amp mods go.

Heck yeah. I just talked with a guy in Chicago (3hrs away from me) who is a very reputable amp modder and repairman of guitars and pedals and all sorts of stuff. He said that if I'm confortable with the guitars, then we should try modding the amp first. It could always be returned back to stock... I think you might be right that I need some warmer tone woods though. I'm gonna trade in one of my lesser like Westones in for an all Mohagany Epi SG today just to experiment. It would be nice if I didn't have to go to drive to mod the amp, but there is NO BODY around where I live... The mods you suggested sound simple however. Perhaps I COULD find someone around here... I shall look. what is the ohm lug that you are referring to? Doesn't that have to do with the speaker ohms?

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I mean *DOES that have to do with the speaker ohms?

 

[dominus]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I like a lot of the pickups you listed, but they're all pretty bright in their own ways.

Try:

Invader
Dimarzio Tone Zone
Dimarzio Air Zone

Also, try different strings and a different pick material.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I like a lot of the pickups you listed, but they're all pretty bright in their own ways.

Try:

Invader
Dimarzio Tone Zone
Dimarzio Air Zone

Also, try different strings and a different pick material.

Hmm... ok yeah those are good suggestions. I'm not too much a fan of pickups that have an "identity" if that sounds right. Like the Invader for example. I more just like to hear the guitar and the amp and the player's hands but, I am however open to trying anything at this point. SO, I will track one of these pups down. I've thought about trying the super distortion, but I just gotta have me some alnico...Thanks man.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Different pick is a great place to start. Buy 20-30 different sizes, materials, and shapes. I'm always blown away at how much of a difference it makes between using a black Jazz III and a regular sized very thin pick.

I'd also try moving my picking hand closer to the neck than the bridge. This naturally darkens/deepens the tone and gets more of a bell like sound than a high pitched one.

If none of that works, I second the Tone Zone recommendation.

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Different pick is a great place to start. Buy 20-30 different sizes, materials, and shapes. I'm always blown away at how much of a difference it makes between using a black Jazz III and a regular sized very thin pick.

I'd also try moving my picking hand closer to the neck than the bridge. This naturally darkens/deepens the tone and gets more of a bell like sound than a high pitched one.

If none of that works, I second the Tone Zone recommendation.

Right on, yeah. I've gone through a gajillion different picks man and am very varied in my picking hand techniques. The situation persists even if I'm playing with my bare fingers. This problem I'm thinkin is a combination of bright speakers, very bright amp and bright guitar/ pickups.

I'm gonna do a few mods on the amp and find a cheap, all mahogany guitar to experiment with and go from there. I knew the 800 was a bright amp, but now that I reflect on it a bit more, I'm realizing that it is a VERY bright amp...

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Still, all suggestions are welcome I wouldn't have even come to this conclusion had it not been for you guys...

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

+ another for teh Tone Zone

.02

 

[Bludave]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

After viewing the specs of those guitars I think you are right. All that solid maple is a problem for harsh tones. I would look at a Mahogany body and a rosewood fingerboard. If you prefer Humbucking guitars then I would also start with a pair of 59's. Personally I like the Alnico II's in a Les Paul type of guitar but that's just me. The Mahogany should warm things up a bit. Now if you want to go a cheaper route and it sounds like you do, try replacing the pickups with a set of Seth Lovers. Seth pickups are darker and in a bright guitar should warm things up significantly

 

[BloodRose]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Yeah, sounds like the guitar itself would be prone to being bright, but Im sure you should be able to tame is with proper eqing and a proper pickup. Another vote for the Tone Zone or Duncan Custom Custom as they are darker/bassier pickups. I had an all maple Carvin with a brass nut once and had to drop a Tone Zone in it to tame the highs.

Let us know what you find that helps you get away from being Shrilly Vanilli!! haha

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

Yeah, sounds like the guitar itself would be prone to being bright, but Im sure you should be able to tame is with proper eqing and a proper pickup. Another vote for the Tone Zone or Duncan Custom Custom as they are darker/bassier pickups. I had an all maple Carvin with a brass nut once and had to drop a Tone Zone in it to tame the highs.

Let us know what you find that helps you get away from being Shrilly Vanilli!! haha

Right on guys! Thanks for your feedback!

I've been talking with some very reputable amp modders and guitar techs all day today. One guy told me that 800's are inherently very bright amps and suggested a few simple mods, that my friend who lives an hour away should be able to take care of. Two techs actually told me the opposite of what I expected, which is keep with the guitars if I feel comfortable with them and to make it happen from the amp. Plan A is to do the simple 800 mods, then put the stock pickup back in my westone so that I have a reference point and go from there (upgrade pickups, electronics, etc). If things are STILL too bright, I will have no problem setting my westones aside and saving up for a primo Les Paul or whatever. And, I think I'm gonna have to track down a tone zone just because I'm really curious now Anybody got one?!

 

[T.M.A.]

Re: OK, It's GOTTA be the GUITARS...

I mean, my guitars are all maple -I know they're bright, but this brightness that's going on now is just plain unhealthy. I'm really thinking that the amp has a lot more to do with this "unhealthy" amount of brightness much more so than the guitars at this point...