Old 59

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

I think I got this in the late 70s. Does that seem right? Anything different versus current?

View attachment 93885

Yes, that looks like correct for a pre-1983 SD pickup. There is no imprinted SD logo on your baseplate. Also, your sticker on the back with just the model and position indicator predates the stamps with the wonders initials. Later, yours might have had a sticker with 59NJ, or something similar, with the last letter representing the name of the person who made it. Also, the "Seynourized " sticker is one I have rarely seen. The '59 pickup was introduced in 1978 by SD, so yours could be very early.

I have a JB that has no SD impression on the baseplate, but has the 3 letter sticker JBD. I sent a picture of it to MJ in the custom shop and she said it was made sometime between 82-85, but probably 83. She said they still had a few pickups using the blank baseplate into 84-85. After that all had the SD imprint.

The primary difference between your '59 and a new one will be the magnet primarily. When SD first started making pickups, most of the magnets were sand cast rough magnets. In your case, an Alnico 5 magnet. Sometimes the older magnets DCR will vary a bit more from the specs listed today, so it might be fun for you to measure yours. The new 59's and the majority of SD pickups now have polished magnets. SD has said many times that the formula or wind pattern for the '59, or any of the pickups, has never changed. The '59 is wound with vintage spec 42 AWG wire, wound on the vintage Lessona machine that wound pickups for Gibson in the 50's and has an A5 magnet.

Now, here is where "stated facts" and the sound that I and some others think we hear collides. I have several old pickups made in the early to mid 80's, including a '59, Custom, JB and a set of Pearly Gates. My ears think they sound sweeter, more articulate and just plain better than their newer counterparts. However, the vast majority think they all sound the same. I have other examples of why I think the older pickups sound better or different, but I won't get into it here. You can decide for yourself.

So, your pickup was made sometime between '78 and '83 or so, when the 3 letter stickers were introduced. My thought is that it's older vs newer due to the extra Seymourized sticker, but that is just my conjecture. Someone else may know more or better.

Last thing... If you ever decide you don't want it, send me a PM here. I'll buy it at a more than fair price. Congrats on the new (old) pickup.

Edit... Or, as hamerplyr stated, it might be possible that this is a pickup that started out as something else, like a Gibson or some other pickup maker, and it was sent to Seymour to be rewound. In his early days, but still today as well, Seymour offered players the option to send in any pickup to be repaired or rewound into one of his pickup designs. If that's the case, your pickup may have started it's life as something else and then Seymour rewound it into a 59N, and applied the 'Seymourized" sticker. In that case it would be difficult to date.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Old 59

Now, here is where "stated facts" and the sound that I and some others think we hear collides. I have several old pickups made in the early to mid 80's, including a '59, Custom, JB and a set of Pearly Gates. My ears think they sound sweeter, more articulate and just plain better than their newer counterparts. However, the vast majority think they all sound the same. I have other examples of why I think the older pickups sound better or different, but I won't get into it here. You can decide for yourself.

Based on my own experiences, I doubt that ceramic pickups vary much if at all regardless of vintage. According to Hamerfan's guide, my old DCJ is from '83-'88 and it sounded great, but it was virtually identical to both of my early 2000s Customs. Maybe it isn't old enough, but we have no evidence anecdotal or otherwise that SD's ceramic magnets have changed over the years. When it comes to A5 pickups, I'm convinced that the difference is polished vs. roughcast. I believe it was Lewguitar that took a new '59 and swapped the magnet for a RCA5, and he claimed that the result was indistinguishable from his early 80s '59s. I've never done that swap myself, but I have heard both old and new '59s and the old ones are better. For that sound I find the WLH close enough, and the little bit of extra output is a nice bonus. For PGs I really wonder if the difference is just the magnets aging? I generally don't care for A2s, so I don't have the expertise to offer anything more insightful.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

Yep, I have three of these, too. Some of them have red ink like yours, some have black ink like the later ones. Does that mean anything?

A nice touch is the oval sticker. I have seem it on Repairs / Rewounds of Gibson pickups too.

You have 3 of them? Jeff could really use an old double cream '59B to match the old '59N he has. Any chance you might want to part with one?

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

Nice addition dystrust. I am sure the magnet type and age makes a difference in the sound. There might be some difference in DCR, wind pattern or even wire manufacturer, but there is no way to know.

The Alnico magnets do age and I do believe the polished vs roughcast magnet matters. I've been talking to a boutique pickup wonder and he says magnets can have a huge impact on tone. Not just rough vs polished, but in the way they are charged and to what level they are charged. He also said that the chemical makeup of the magnets matter. The ingredients can change from batch to batch from the same maker and they definitely change from maker to maker. Those ingredients can and do have an impact on how a pickup made with it will sound. Also, there are not many magnet foundries left in the US. Most magnets now are made in SE Asia now, mainly China. Who knows how consistent the formula is there, or how consistent the production process is.

I have no idea who SD sources magnets from, but the key will be it needs to be from someone who can not only supply the volume, but a consistent formula as well.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Old 59

I think I got this in the late 70s. Does that seem right? Anything different versus current?

View attachment 93885

Yes, these puppies are early versions. I've also got a handful of these ones and IME, they're not even close to current SH1's: they are not potted, their bobbins are made of a different plastic (butyrate: it smells like vomit when a soldering iron touches it), their mags are dark blueish RCA5's (I'm sure they're A5, since I've measured them with a Teslameter), their coils are wound noticeably looser (and tend to die if they are handled without care: I had to repair two of them), their screw poles are threaded through the baseplates... Their sound is thickier albeit richer than with modern 59's and they are more prone to squeal.

FWIW.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Old 59

The thing about older magnets not the age, but the formula used. No one was obsessing over this stuff n the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, so the magnet supplier and or specific formula would vary (sometimes greatly) from batch to batch.

I don’t know how many magnets Duncan buys at a time, but it stands to reason they got a particularly good batch in the late ‘80’s

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

Sorry Jeff, that's simply not true. In the Duncan workflow, the Leesona's always been exclusively used to all wind coils with Plain Enamel wire (PE), including the Custom Shop ones.

So, what the "L" stands for? Wait for it...
https://www.seymourduncan.com/faqs/labels-built-before-2002

As you can see here, it clearly reads: "L Lidia Daniel (Humbuckers)"


If with this statement you mean that the magnet has an influence in the DC reading of a p'up, like the public spec of '59n is 7.48K, this is simply not true. Only the wire's actual spec (meaning Ohms-per-foot) or temperature will have an effect on a p'up's measured DCR.

Hope this helps to keep the correct info flowing.

/Peter

I have the same list saved that you do Peter; the same one available on the SD site.

All I can tell you is that when I was at the SD factory in 2005 for UGD one of the factory employees told me that when they started to transition away from the 3 letter stickers like JBJ, but before the computerized stickers of today they would use L for Lessona on some stickers for certain pickups wound on the Lessona machine. I wasn't given a specific time frame other than after 3 letter stickers and before computer stickers. I don't know if Lydia Daniels is still winding pickups or if not, when she stopped.

The picture of the pickup posted with the L on the sticker has a small S in Seymour as compared to the other pickup with the large S. That makes it somewhere an 88-2001. Sometime in the late 90's to the early 2000's the stickers changed from ink stamped to a more printed look. It was my understanding that it was during this period where the winder initial was dropped. This should be the timeframe when L meant Lessona on certain PAF style pickups.

If my information is wrong I'm more than happy to revise my notes and correct myself.

As for your other statement, I meant to say the older pickups DCR could fluctuate or vary from the specs listed today, not that the magnet causes the DCR to change. I typed the wrong word... magnet instead of pickup...having magnets in the forefront of my thinking. Just a typing error.

I have no issue being given accurate info that corrects what I know. I do not know everything and am continually learning. However, when you use game show host phrases like "wait for it", I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or trying to be an ass. Many times in your posts it comes off as the latter. It sounds smug and condescending, and while it's not always possible to determine the underlying intent of internet posts, I do have a fairly accurate BS meter after 20+ years on the internet. I always have the time and desire to interact with knowledgeable people who have better or more accurate info than I do. I have zero time for the game show host form of smug and condescending.

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Old 59

Freefrog and Jeff,

you are on a thing. It would be interesting to know since what point Seymour used the Leesona. I remember he bought it from the old Kalamazoo factory.

This explains the difference of the looser coils to the machine wound Leesona coils.

By the way i managed to improve my time line with a new point. SD bought a label printer and used it with Ants for Neck/Bridge labels. This happened in 1998. Therefore its probable they used it in the production line, too:

5. small backlogo with MiA, small tag with winder initial from 1988 to 2002 (rubber stamp on the tag up to mid 90ies (97?) then labelprinter / end 90ies the silkscreened logo on the bobbin started, but not on 59s except on OEMs)

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

Good info hamerfan. I know that I read about Seymour buying the Lessona after Gibson moved out of Kalamazoo, which was in 85' I believe. Actually, production started to shift to Nashville as early as 1974 and towards the end the Kalamazoo location was used as a custom shop of sorts. The last Gibson was built in Kalamazoo in 1984.

Seymour introduced the SSL-1 in 1976. Then the JB and Jazz in 1977. The 59' was introduced in 1978 and the Pearly Gates and the Custom in 1979. The Distortion in 1980 and the Invader in 1981. Just an educated guess, but I'm thinking that Gibzon wouldn't have liquidated any major equipment until Kalamazoo closed. I remember something about Seymour buying the machines or they were going to be thrown out as junk. I'm sure the date when Seymour bought the Lessona isn't a secret, but at a minimum it would have been 1985 before he could have bought it, I think. Just simple deduction for now, no solid facts to back that up.

So, if the 59' was introduced in 1978 and the Pearly Gates in 1979, what were they wound on until Seymour bought the Lessona? That could account for any differences between any of the humbuckers wound before the Lessona arrived. Also, I seem to remember that the Lessona(s) plural to be accurate, were not in working shape when Seymour bought them. It may have taken months at a minimum to source parts, get the machine running, figure out how to wind the pickups correctly on it, develop their technique until their results were repeatable enough for mass production, et al. It may have taken a year or more. Again, just speculation at this point.

Any pickup wound by hand or by another type of winder is bound to sound somewhat different than a pickup wound on the Lessona, even if they worked out how to keep the wind pattern the same and the number of turns the same. The Lessona is not a precision CNC type of machine. Gibson just used to run it until the bobbins were full as it didn't even have a counter or auto stop back then. Seymour may have even added those things to it.


I'm going to see if I can find out when Seymour bought the Lessona. Everything is on the web somewhere.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

Question answered. Seymour Duncan acquired the Leesona 102 winding machine from the Parsons Street location in Kalamazoo MI in 1984. The answer comes from this interview Evan Skopp did for Premier Guitar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCqrGyEJFqc

So, the question is; what were '59's and Pearly Gates pickups wound on prior to 1984? Also, how does that change the tone?

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Old 59

Maybe Seymour used other winding machines like the Geo Stevens or a Meteor, which are quite common vintage winding machines. Geo is what Gibson used for P90s in the old days. The Leesona did a certain thing to the coils due to the special traverse system, while others work more like the hand contolled winding like Fender used for his single coils before 1963. There is great resource on the different kinds of winding machines on Throbak website and on his youtube vids.

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: Old 59

In one of the videos Duncan does periodically, he said that in the beginning he wound his coils on a home-made winding machine using some kind of sewing machine motor as I recall, which he could vary the speed with. When the company went into more extensive production, they must have had other winding machines made or purchased, but I don't know for sure what they were.
Al

 

[BoogieMKII]

Re: Old 59

I bought the P/U before 1980, when it first came out. So 1978 or 1979 is about right. From Willcutt Guitars. DCR = 7.5K. Appears to be non-potted. I have the bridge P/U somewhere. Here is a pic of the magnet end and the zebra bobbins. Screws in the black bobbins. It can squeal at high gain. I put a zebra Seth Lover Bridge in place of it in my 1973 Les Paul Deluxe neck and liking the Seth better. I have a zebra Pearly Gates in the bridge, got it when it first came out and love it.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Old 59

You can really see the dark purple 42AWG wire in that pic and how dark the magnet is. I find it really cool that you have not only that pickup, but the matching bridge and some PG pickups too.....from the late 70's. I (we) never or rarely see pickups from that era and for you to have several examples is neat. Thank you for sharing them with us, and I invite you to keep coming back and join our little community. There are a lot of great people here And tons of good info on pickups, gear and tone.


The pickup I have in my early 80's JB is very dark, just like the one in your '59. I've developed a fascination with pickups from early in SD's career, but there aren't many examples left. The earliest examples I've been able to find and buy are from the early 80's 3 letter sticker era. I'll keep looking though.


I've also read and watched the stuff Throbak has on the winding machines and it's really good info.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Old 59

Took me a while to find this thread again.... This should be stickied, or perhaps a cleaned up version of this thread and the info within.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Old 59

jeff, where do you see the wire in that pic? i just see tape. cool old pup for sure!