One of my pup theories just got flushed!

[Artie]

. . . and I thought I was just starting to understand pup dynamics. :yell:

Stratfans thread about the JB equals the 59 got me to looking at the specs for those two pups. The JB is twice the DC resistance of the 59. Both have A5 mags. Clearly the JB has considerably more windings than the 59.

Here's where my understanding of pup dynamics takes a hit. More windings should equate to higher inductance, which should mean more high-frequency attenuation, which means the 59 should be more "airy" and much brighter than the JB. Thats the opposite of what my ears tell me.

Anyone else, who's heard them both, feel this way? Where did I go wrong in my understanding of these?

Hmmm . . . :smack:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

Artie, compared to the JB, I hear the 59B as having the brighter and airier (less mids) tone. I hear the JB being louder and having more mids.

 

[Artie]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

Then maybe my understanding is correct. And, its true that the 59, when in my Patriot, was too bright and shrill, and now, the JB works fine in that guitar.

It really goes to show, and I think you might have been the one who told me this, that the Kahler in my Predator really stifles a lot of high-end. With the right pups, its not a problem, but it does show how much the guitar affects the tone.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

I Kinda agree that the jb is Brighter than the 59. But it also has more upper midds so that might just make it seem brighter.
But I think the major factor in the Brightness of the Jb compared to the 59 is probably the Gauge of wire used. The Jb has far more windings so a far lighter gauge wire must be used to be able to fit all those windings on the bobbins. And to me lighter gauge wire has always seemed to make for a brighter pickup(to me).

But I could be completely wrong about all of this....Ed

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

Then maybe my understanding is correct. And, its true that the 59, when in my Patriot, was too bright and shrill, and now, the JB works fine in that guitar.

It really goes to show, and I think you might have been the one who told me this, that the Kahler in my Predator really stifles a lot of high-end. With the right pups, its not a problem, but it does show how much the guitar affects the tone.

I'm not a fan of those original top mount Kahlers. The string angle behind the saddles is not steep enough and they have a spongey feel and give the guitar a weak tone, IMO. That's just my experience with them.

Hi Artie, I do hear the 59 as having a brighter tone and a more extended high end...but at the same time I don't hear the 59 as being as aggresive and hard on my ears as the JB can be. I do think it's those pronounced upper mids in the JB...they sound a little hard to me sometimes. Great pickup...but my ears have gotten really sensitive. Lew

 

[Artie]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

I think that may be part of the problem with my Patriot also. The strings don't go through the body, but attach to the end of the bridge. Thus, they pull the bridge towards the neck, rather than tighter to the body:

(Thats the pre-JB photo.)

I'm still toying with the idea of converting it to a Hipshot, string-through bridge, using Callaham ferrules, when I refinish the body. I have so little invested in the guitar, and I like the neck a lot, so I think it may be worth doing.

Still thinking, though.

 

[Stevo]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

I find pickup electonics slightly less intuitive than other simple circuits:

AC and DC voltages are superimposed
When DC resistance is higher, the DC voltage drop across the resistance is higher, depending on the total resistance of the circuit.
AC reacts to total impedance, including DC resistance, inductance and capacitance. DC resistance is constant, and inductance varies with the AC frequency.

Higher coil resistance normally does mean more 'henrys'/X(sub)L/self_ inductance, but magnets have a definite impact on resonant frequency also. Wire diameter also has an influence on the amount of inductance.

** Here's what I think is exclusive to pickup inductance:
Along with "self-inductance", you are also creating voltage with the same magnetic field, when you vibrate a metal string in the field - like an AC generator.
From the pickups that I have had, it seems that the higher amounts of windings will create more sound compression also.

In the end, I guess it's all about your own ears. I don't know how much math that Seymour does before he designs a pickup, but I don't think it matters. I think it's more of an intuition and an experimental procedure. It seems that a pickup might be spectacular on paper, but may sound like total crap once you build it

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

. . . and I thought I was just starting to understand pup dynamics. :yell:

Stratfans thread about the JB equals the 59 got me to looking at the specs for those two pups. The JB is twice the DC resistance of the 59. Both have A5 mags. Clearly the JB has considerably more windings than the 59.

Here's where my understanding of pup dynamics takes a hit. More windings should equate to higher inductance, which should mean more high-frequency attenuation, which means the 59 should be more "airy" and much brighter than the JB. Thats the opposite of what my ears tell me.

Anyone else, who's heard them both, feel this way? Where did I go wrong in my understanding of these?

Hmmm . . . :smack:

I have both. Can't agree with you. The 59 is decidedly brighter. Many people hear the upper mid bump as bright. It really isn't but combined with a little gain and volume excites a lot of upper harmonics that makes it seem brighter.

Don's forget also that the 59 is would with heavier gauge wire than the JB. 42 in the 59 vs 44 in the JB is memory serves.

 

[Artie]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

Yeah . . . what it boils down to, and I should've known this, I can't take one specification as simple as DC resistance, for instance, and equate it absolutely, to a particular EQ characteristic.

So much to learn.

 

[big_black]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

I find pickup electonics slightly less intuitive than other simple circuits:

AC and DC voltages are superimposed
When DC resistance is higher, the DC voltage drop across the resistance is higher, depending on the total resistance of the circuit.
AC reacts to total impedance, including DC resistance, inductance and capacitance. DC resistance is constant, and inductance varies with the AC frequency.

Higher coil resistance normally does mean more 'henrys'/X(sub)L/self_ inductance, but magnets have a definite impact on resonant frequency also. Wire diameter also has an influence on the amount of inductance.

** Here's what I think is exclusive to pickup inductance:
Along with "self-inductance", you are also creating voltage with the same magnetic field, when you vibrate a metal string in the field - like an AC generator.
From the pickups that I have had, it seems that the higher amounts of windings will create more sound compression also.

In the end, I guess it's all about your own ears. I don't know how much math that Seymour does before he designs a pickup, but I don't think it matters. I think it's more of an intuition and an experimental procedure. It seems that a pickup might be spectacular on paper, but may sound like total crap once you build it

Wow, I should hit the books. That just went way over my head... :smack:

 

[Lightning]

Re: One of my pup theories just got flushed!

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