Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

Nuts

New member
Hello,
I just completed this jimmy page mod on my guitar and I notice that when I'm pulling the bridge tone knob (out of phase switch), the 'out of phase' sound is only noticeable when the 2 pickups conected in series together (only when neck tone knob is also pulled)
Is that how it supposed to be, or did I messed up ?
BTW I was using this wiring from les paul forum:
All-parts.jpg
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

It's just sound the same, whether or not the 'out of phase' switch in on or not, UNLESS the 'pickups in series' switch is on too, then I can hear the 'out of phase' sound.
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

It's just sound the same, whether or not the 'out of phase' switch in on or not, UNLESS the 'pickups in series' switch is on too, then I can hear the 'out of phase' sound.
That is because you are putting one pickup out of phase with another with the out of phase switch. The coils of a Humbucker are almost always (exception can occur when the coils aren't sharing the same magnet) out of phase with each other as the coils are receiving opposite polarities from the bar magnet. The out of phase switch is giving you what the 2 and 4 positions of a Strat would give you, but in series with 4 total coils. It is essentially giving you a reverse wound/polarity effect for Humbuckers. In simpler terms, there will only be a difference in sound with an out of phase switch enabled when both pickups are on.
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

What happens when you pull the neck only?

I think you messed up the series wiring or something else. Out of phase is perceptible if only the bridge is pulled on mine.

Also that wiring diagram looks unusual to me - I don't think I've seen one where both pickups go from the series switch to the pickup selector switch. I would bet that has something to do with the problem.
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

What happens when you pull the neck only?

I think you messed up the series wiring or something else. Out of phase is perceptible if only the bridge is pulled on mine.

Also that wiring diagram looks unusual to me - I don't think I've seen one where both pickups go from the series switch to the pickup selector switch. I would bet that has something to do with the problem.

sorry I wasn't so clear.

I was thinking that the 'out of phase' can also work on one of the pickups, I didn't know you need both pickups for that sound.
so there's no problem.
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

That is because you are putting one pickup out of phase with another with the out of phase switch. The coils of a Humbucker are almost always (exception can occur when the coils aren't sharing the same magnet) out of phase with each other as the coils are receiving opposite polarities from the bar magnet. The out of phase switch is giving you what the 2 and 4 positions of a Strat would give you, but in series with 4 total coils. It is essentially giving you a reverse wound/polarity effect for Humbuckers. In simpler terms, there will only be a difference in sound with an out of phase switch enabled when both pickups are on.

a humbucker needs to be have its coils be opposite wound and opposite magnetic polarity, so even if they dont share the same bar magnet they still need to be magnetically opposite or it wont cancel hum. also the 2 & 4 positions on a typical strat are not out of phase. they are parallel, in phase. people call it the out of phase position but thats a misnomer and incorrect.

the last part is right on the money though, you need both pups on to notice a difference
 
Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

a humbucker needs to be have its coils be opposite wound and opposite magnetic polarity, so even if they dont share the same bar magnet they still need to be magnetically opposite or it wont cancel hum. also the 2 & 4 positions on a typical strat are not out of phase. they are parallel, in phase. people call it the out of phase position but thats a misnomer and incorrect.

the last part is right on the money though, you need both pups on to notice a difference

Yep!
Regular strato singles have same electrical and magnetic polarity. They are "in-phase" but not hum-cancelling.
To make them hum-cancelling we need to reverse the wound of the middle pickup, by example (this is RW/RP).

To have an "out-of-phase" effect, you need (at least) either TWO coils or TWO pickups. TWO is the number.

This grid gives you the several combinations of TWO pickups (or coils) and what to expect.

Phase and hum scenarios.jpg

Highlighted in yellow, in-phase not hum-cancelling scenarios.
Highlighted in Green, in-phase and hum-cancelling scenarios.
Highlighted in Red, out-of-phase and not hum-cancelling scenarios (the ones that are directly related to your question).

CW - means Clockwise Wound
CCW - means Counter ClockWise Wound.
N - means North Magnetic Polarity (the upper side of the coil/pickup)
S - means South Magnetic Polarity (the upper side of the coil/pickup)

Strato singles are usually CW-S. Usually, EVERY coil is wound the same (CW). They get their magnetic polarity depending on the orientation of the magnetic rods (if singles) or over which magnetic polarity they lay (if a magnetic bar is under it).
Since every coil is usually wound CW, a humbucker has two CW coils. One lying on a South magnetic field, the other on a North magnetic field. Therefore, we have a CW-S and a CW-N coils.
But, you see that in the grid above, this corresponds to the worst scenario (not hum-cancelling and out-of-phase).
To fix the issues, we just need to swap the lead wires (start and finish) of one of the pickups, which usually is done to the CW-N coil.
Swapping the leads is equivalent to reverse the wound of such a pickup so, the CW-N coil becomes a CCW-N coil.
Now, the humbucker has a CW-S coil and a CCW-N coil and, this corresponds to an in-phase and hum-cancelling scenario.

The out-of-phaser switch is just swapping the "standard-pickup-ground" and the "standard-hot-ground" (green and black, in Seymour Duncan's pickups).
What, at the end, means:

* the screw coil that was CW-S becomes a CCW-S coil.
* the slug coil that was CCW-N becomes a CW-N coil.
* the complete electrical flow is being reversed (compared to the other "regularly wired" pickup.

You will get out-of-phase effect even if you split this pickup to any of the two coils and, you combine it (parallel or series, it doesn't matter) with the other pickup.
An odd number of coils will always give you not hum-cancelling combinations, but no necessarily out-of-phase combinations.
If the three pickups are of same type (CW-S or CCW-S or CW-N or CCW-N) you will get in-phase combos (but not hum-cancelling).
If any of the odd number of coils is different, you will get out-of-phase combos (and not hum-cancelling).
 
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Re: Out of phase sound in Jimmy Page wiring.

sorry I wasn't so clear.

I was thinking that the 'out of phase' can also work on one of the pickups, I didn't know you need both pickups for that sound.
so there's no problem.

That is possible, but would require an extra switch per pup.

Talk to BeauBrummels for a 6 switch JP mod - as true as I've found to JP's original. I've wired it up and it gives me splits for each pup, series/parallel for each pup and series and/or phase for both pups.

I'd post it for you but can't find it.

Best. Mod. Ever.
 
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