Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

that's what i've been saying. i generally play around 120-140 because that's the only way i can play perfectly without any help from added distortion. i'd like to get better tone when playing faster but that's hard for me. i'm not stranger to playing slow because that's the only way to build up speed.

the thing is though, my tone starts to turn to mush upwards of 150bpm because i don't know how to use my amps and pedals i think

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Well make it brighter then!
It is still about getting the attack and angles right at slow speeds first....and you have combos right??
No closed cabs??

 

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

what do you mean exactly? my el diablo is almost a closed back combo except for a slot at the top where your hand can fit in to get to the tubes. other than that it's a solid back that covers most of the back of the amp. it's not as bright as my laney though.

my eq are typically as follows: bass=6, mid=6, treble=4. i read some where in a mesa manual that more mids adds pick resistance and i have noticed that scooped mids give me that easy feel when i'm picking. i wonder if it's because i used kind of thick mids that i get more pick resistance.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Your El Diablo is what they call semi-closed or semi-open back (depending who you talk to). Turn the treble up. Start at about 6. Get the bass down around 4. I know, it may sound thin, but then again, it may not. And in a band situation, especially with some volume behind it, you'll want that bass lower to avoid mud. The mids are fine. If you want, try setting them to 5 just to tame them back a hair. If you have to add some more lows back in, then turn the bass up a little at a time to fill it out without being overbearing.

 

[Gamera]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

It's impossible to make that El Diablo sound thin. There have been times I've run my treble all the way up and backed down on bass and that thing still sounds fat and thick. Don't be afraid to crank the treble. And don't be afraid to use the compression switch. That's what it's there for. And "compression" is not a dirty word!

 

[James Rock]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Everyone is right when they say don't worry too much about it. Feel tends to be something that comes with experience like I've been playing since I was 6 and I'm now 17 and my feel has improved dramatically in the last few years (especially compares to others I see around me that have been playing only a few years) I'm no good at playing fast and I'm not really a metal/instrumental rock guitarist so I can't do the super speed legato playing and such but I notice more dynamics in my playing the more I play with my band. Basically I think its a hard thing to get the 'feel' right when playing bedroom volumes I'm sure you'll get there but don't rush yourself because it may take a little longer if you play bedroom volumes by yourself 95% of the time.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

BTW, I've seen videos of Zakk Wylde wailing away on an acoustic guitar playing just as fast and clean as he can on a Les Paul. Very impressive. Lew

Yep, and so does YJM, after I've learned about technical passthrough on an acoustic, I do my usual routines twice on acoustic for every time I plug in.

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Yep, and so does YJM, after I've learned about technical passthrough on an acoustic, I do my usual routines twice on acoustic for every time I plug in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPc1dgyYF28

That takes some mad skill to pull off on a classical...

 

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

actually i find it easier to play fast on an accoustic guitar than an electric with very low gain and relatively low volume.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

It's very difficult to find a true point of reference with regard to amounts of gain and their context when playing alone, until you have had a lot of experience working in band situations. There seems to often be a converse relationship between what we think might sound good and what actually works once we mix a guitar sound in with a drum kit, bass amp, keyboards, vocals or another guitar player. One of the first to make itself apparent is the illusion that distortion equates to power. The fact slowly emerges that the most potent dynamic intensity actually comes from the hands. This is why a lot of players who are relying on distortion to "glue" their playing together come unstuck when confronted with a good rhythm section. An overly saturated sound often comes across as being weak and thin, and since many players make the mistake of running amps of too high a wattage in venues which cannot accommodate them, their offstage spill means that they will often be left out of a FOH mix, resulting in their thin ineffectual sound coming purely off the stage, which almost inevitably sounds like ass.

One of the most useful skills is to have a broad dynamic range in your hands, and then setting the amp gain at a point where digging in produces substantial punch from the amp, whereas backing off on the intensity from the hands produces a much cleaner, but still powerful sound. This is infinitely more difficult than playing a constant, compressed, high gain saturation, but yields infinitely more musical results. When you first attempt to play this way, it will be very confronting, because any flaws or weaknesses in the dynamic range in your hands will become instantly apparent. Any crap being played will just sound like very loud and exposed crap. However, with much practice in the context of a band setting we can begin to develop a live playing technique which enables us to ride the dynamics of a song just with our hands, which is a real world skill, as opposed to the illusory and essentially useless skill of being able to play fast, at home alone, with a bucket load of distortion. Ultimately, this is one of the major factors that separates the bedroom player and the professional working guitarist. Along with this goes the understanding that in most real world situations, it will be skillful rhythm playing which will keep a guitarist in work. The simplest ratio to keep in mind is that the average song, eg @ 120 bpm, is around 120 bars long. If there is a guitar solo in the song, then it will probably be 8 bars long. That's a rhythm to solo ratio of 15:1. Logically, that would imply that we should spend 15 times more time working on our rhythm playing and sounds than we do on our solos and lead sounds. Certainly something to consider.




Cheers...................................wahwah

 

[Rainmaker]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

THANK YOU, wahwah! I was confronted with that thin lead tone yesterday during a jam and , since I lost my pick, today I've started playing with my hands. I turned my amp louder and lowered my gain, and I noticed that phenomenon that you brought to my consciousness.

Though you probably weren't referring to a "hands only" playing style, I think I'm gonna play with my hands from now on...




Additionally, it would be nice to strike the gain shaping balance between a wide dynamic range and a both fitting & easy to reach 'volume roof' so that I don't have to be a good player to be heard. :laugh2:

 

[JohnnyGuitar]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

a. Don't worry, you'll develop better touch and feel as you get more experience - just keep your ears, eyes and mind open.
b. Amp settings are very individual for the player and his amp type but your setting looks like something that would work better with single coils when you're trying to get a fat Strat tone. Try different settings that might open up your sound a little.
c. Try developing your feel while playing slowly. Then speed it up a little, then a little more - it would take time.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

One of the most useful skills is to have a broad dynamic range in your hands, and then setting the amp gain at a point where digging in produces substantial punch from the amp, whereas backing off on the intensity from the hands produces a much cleaner, but still powerful sound. This is infinitely more difficult than playing a constant, compressed, high gain saturation, but yields infinitely more musical results. When you first attempt to play this way, it will be very confronting, because any flaws or weaknesses in the dynamic range in your hands will become instantly apparent. Any crap being played will just sound like very loud and exposed crap. However, with much practice in the context of a band setting we can begin to develop a live playing technique which enables us to ride the dynamics of a song just with our hands, which is a real world skill, as opposed to the illusory and essentially useless skill of being able to play fast, at home alone, with a bucket load of distortion. Ultimately, this is one of the major factors that separates the bedroom player and the professional working guitarist. Along with this goes the understanding that in most real world situations, it will be skillful rhythm playing which will keep a guitarist in work. The simplest ratio to keep in mind is that the average song, eg @ 120 bpm, is around 120 bars long. If there is a guitar solo in the song, then it will probably be 8 bars long. That's a rhythm to solo ratio of 15:1. Logically, that would imply that we should spend 15 times more time working on our rhythm playing and sounds than we do on our solos and lead sounds. Certainly something to consider.




Cheers...................................wahwah

Yeah, that's all great advice.

BB, you've already picked up on the idea that playing with a band will help you figure a lot of stuff out. And I can't stress enough how important that will be for your development. Even rehearsal with a band will help immensely.

You also need to really get the concept that there's so much more to technique than playing a single-note line cleanly at a given metronome tempo. All the cool dynamic stuff like how hard you pick, where you pick and how your left hand articulates is all technique too, and that's the stuff that will give you a style and some musicality. Chops is EVERYTHING physical you do on a guitar, not just the fast picking and legato stuff. Really great chops players like Paul Gilbert understand this and it shows in their playing (and in his case, his teaching).

From hearing your clips I can tell you're focusing most of your efforts on scalar lines and accuracy and not nearly enough on the more basic stuff that will really help you sound good, like rhythmic feel, dynamics and intonation. I'm not trying to put you off working on your picking, as the more you work on technique the more natural you will sound playing the more difficult stuff you'd like to hear yourself play. But I do strongly recommend you start looking at all the little basic things you do when playing guitar and really focus on them and value them.

Try getting hold of the first Eric Johnson instructional video, seeing as you like his playing. He spends some time playing fast scales, but most of the video deals with how to achieve different feels and dynamics, and the subtleties of how to achieve that. You'll learn a lot.

One more thing, related to wahwah's post: what he says about rhythm guitar is SUPER IMPORTANT and absolutely reflects the real world of the gigging player, but I'd take it a step further:

I like to think that playing guitar is an ENTIRELY rhythmic pursuit. You should have rhythmic control and groove whether you're playing backing chords, fills or solos. That's what sets the amateurs apart from the pros. If everything you play grooves, people will be able to relate to whatever you play, be it bone simple or stupifyingly technical. Make groove your key priority and you'll end up being a player that people want to hear.

To get an idea of how important rhythm is to everything you do watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhSzbhn_oo

 

[Gamera]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

You guys remember those old commercials "When E.F. Hutton talks, people listen?" That comes to mind each time I read one of wahwah's posts. Always insightful stuff.

 

[millsart]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

It can also be a good practice exercise (both physically as well as mentally) to try playing some other styles as well such as funk or reggae. Having to really sit down and focus on doing entirely different rhythmic styles can really help you get break out of the ruts we sometimes get into where get a little too comfortable playing only in a certain manner.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Wow, I've never met an aussie with such elequent english, it just proves the point that's its all in the gear, if your rig is all customized and vintage you just phrase better in everything, I bet if WahWah was to be in northern country pissed drunk, and wanted to piss-write in the snow "WahWah was here" it would look like like the caligraphycal perfection of "We are the People" of U.S. constitution

 

[wahwah]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Wow, I've never met an aussie with such elequent english, it just proves the point that's its all in the gear, if your rig is all customized and vintage you just phrase better in everything, I bet if WahWah was to be in northern country pissed drunk, and wanted to piss-write in the snow "WahWah was here" it would look like like the caligraphycal perfection of "We are the People" of U.S. constitution

Fair dinkum cobber, I don't know what you're jabbering on about, all us Aussie blokes and sheilas are bloody grouse and we all talk proper. It's them cuzzy bro Kiwis like Hot_Grits that talk funny. And we can only understand youse Yanks coz we had Gilligan's Island on the telly when we were whipper snappers.



Crikey............................wahwah

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Fair dinkum cobber, I don't know what you're jabbering on about, all us Aussie blokes and sheilas are bloody grouse and we all talk proper. It's them cuzzy bro Kiwis like Hot_Grits that talk funny. And we can only understand youse Yanks coz we had Gilligan's Island on the telly when we were whipper snappers.



Crikey............................wahwah

Wow, you've just reminded me of my accounting professor - an aussie, now and I mean now feel my pain of listning to accounting lectures in that kind of "english." But before BB freaks out over the hijack of this thread, I agree with you on everything, but the thing is that in Metal that is rooted in 70/80 stuff, you really cant avoid splitting your practice time 50/50 between rythm and leads.

 

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Yeah, that's all great advice.

BB, you've already picked up on the idea that playing with a band will help you figure a lot of stuff out. And I can't stress enough how important that will be for your development. Even rehearsal with a band will help immensely.

You also need to really get the concept that there's so much more to technique than playing a single-note line cleanly at a given metronome tempo. All the cool dynamic stuff like how hard you pick, where you pick and how your left hand articulates is all technique too, and that's the stuff that will give you a style and some musicality. Chops is EVERYTHING physical you do on a guitar, not just the fast picking and legato stuff. Really great chops players like Paul Gilbert understand this and it shows in their playing (and in his case, his teaching).

From hearing your clips I can tell you're focusing most of your efforts on scalar lines and accuracy and not nearly enough on the more basic stuff that will really help you sound good, like rhythmic feel, dynamics and intonation. I'm not trying to put you off working on your picking, as the more you work on technique the more natural you will sound playing the more difficult stuff you'd like to hear yourself play. But I do strongly recommend you start looking at all the little basic things you do when playing guitar and really focus on them and value them.

Try getting hold of the first Eric Johnson instructional video, seeing as you like his playing. He spends some time playing fast scales, but most of the video deals with how to achieve different feels and dynamics, and the subtleties of how to achieve that. You'll learn a lot.

One more thing, related to wahwah's post: what he says about rhythm guitar is SUPER IMPORTANT and absolutely reflects the real world of the gigging player, but I'd take it a step further:

I like to think that playing guitar is an ENTIRELY rhythmic pursuit. You should have rhythmic control and groove whether you're playing backing chords, fills or solos. That's what sets the amateurs apart from the pros. If everything you play grooves, people will be able to relate to whatever you play, be it bone simple or stupifyingly technical. Make groove your key priority and you'll end up being a player that people want to hear.

To get an idea of how important rhythm is to everything you do watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhSzbhn_oo

thanks. i own all three of eric's videos and i've seen them countless times. i know all the techniques he uses, but i honestly don't use a lot of them. all the tap harmonics, pinch picking, and fingerstyle stuff doesn't really suite my style. on the other hand, i've broadened my picking technique quite a bit as of late, including picking near the neck pickup as opposed to always having my right hand on the bridge. this seems to really help me pull of sweeps with finger taps and also get some really cool sounding rhythms.

you're right, i've been hard at work on my chops lately. i haven't had a chance to record anything decent or even put the effort into recording something worth listening to more than a minute.

right now my timing is something i'm really trying to work on. thanks for taking the time to offer some advice. you guys have given me a lot of information

 

[tc]

Re: Overdrive/Distortion and "Feel"

Here's my evolution chart ever since I got my Peavey amp...

1st. straight into amp, gain settings 10 and gain boost and volume boost (total noob move, and I wonder why the hell did I complain about feedback!!)

2nd. DS-2 into amp, gain on 10 without gain boost, without volume boost. (still kinda nooby, although in my defense, the pedal was set pretty low, like an OD of sorts..)

3rd. DS-2 almost dimed into clean channel (My Kurt Cobain moments...dunno if he set it up that way tho...)

4th. DS-2 set kinda low, into amp, gain on 6.5, with gain boost. No volume boost. We're getting there boys...

5th. No DS-2, gain on 7.5, with gain boost.

6th. Straight into amp, gain about 8, with gain boost. (My Children of Bodom moment. not tight enough so i went to 7th.)

7th. DS-2 without distortion, just volume (to tighten things up. Didn't work much tho) into amp, gain set at 8 with gain boost.

8th. straight into amp, gain at 5, with the boost.

9th. Straight into amp gain at 9, no boost.

10th. Nowadays, straight into amp, gain at 6, no boost. I'm home dudes...I get the exact crunchy rhythm tones i like, even when playing chugga chugga stuff. I just have to hit the strings harder and I get a tone way nicer...and the thing cleans up perfectly when I play softer. And yes, I do play metal with it. Lead tone is clearer and jumps out more. I am gonna get something to also have a creamy smooth lead tone though, and that is the one thing I will say. I do need lots of gain and a soft attack to get that super smooth flowing tone with my guitar and amp.