P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

[Tripi]

I've bought an old vintage aria proII without electronic.

So I commanded P-rails and I want to use the 8 holes by this way: 2 tone pots, 2 volume pots, 2 switchs split coil, 1 switch Phase, 1 Rotary Switch

Pots : Log 500k (+2x0.47 uf capacitors for tones)
Switch split coil : On/Off/On for P90/Humbucker/Rail
Switch phase : On/On
Rotary Switch : 6-position, 4-pole
1 : Bridge Humbucker Serie
2 : Bridge Humbucker Parallel
3 : Bridge Humbucker + Neck Humbucker Serie
4 : Bridge Humbucker + Neck Humbucker Parallel
5 : Neck Humbucker Serie
6 : Neck Humbucker Parallel

It is my first wiring diagram, is it good?

[If you want to do change, you can find the Openoffice file there : http://fapey.free.fr/Aria/WD.odg
each line (trait) can be moved with keyboard's arrows]

I wonder if the phase switch needs to be at the end, just before the output jack
I wonder the same thing for the Rotary Switch, does it need to be just before the ouput jack?
Can I connect the two green cables (wiring?) to the common pin (C4) so I don't need to connect each pin of the circuit (pole?)
Do I need to connect neck pickup's bare and green cables together since the begining?

Sorry for my english, i'm french, i'm okay to read it, it is difficult to write it and you're lucky not to hear me! If you don't understand anything of this blabla, think it was a martian joke...:sad:

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

I'm not exactly sure what your diagram will do, but it won't do what you want. Switches don't work quite like you seem to think - for example, where you have two wires connected to the same lug. Those wires will always be connected no matter what the switch position. A whole bunch of other things are not quite right, either - too many for me to walk through.

Anyway, I thought I'd be helpful as well as critical so here's a diagram that has a pretty good chance of working correctly. "Correctly" being up for interpretation as I wasn't sure exactly what you want for the middle two positions. I wired them so that the pickups are always in parallel with each other but switch between series and parallel within each pickup just like the other positions. I personally think that'll be the most useful.

The only way I can see to have the pickups in series with each other is to actually have pairs of coils in series, ie. both rails in series with each other, in parallel with the P-90 coils in series. I've had a guitar wired that way(not P-rails, though) and it was a pretty cool sound.

In this diagram I used super-light gray to represent the white leads from the pickups and a slightly darker gray for all the ground wires.

 

[Artie]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

P-Man is on the right track. Everything looks good except for one problem, and I run into this all the time with some of my more elaborate wiring schemes. Neither pickup is ever "turned off" so to speak. You always have the black, (or green, depending on the position of the phase switch), connected to the output at all times. This gets back to the ole coil-as-a-noise-antenna thing. Its a real problem. Just connect a pickup to the hot output and then disconnect its ground. You'll probably be able to listen to local AM radio through your amp. Hellasious hum at best.

Its a tough problem to deal with because you don't have any switch positions left. I'm chewing on it too.

Artie

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

You're exactly right, and I got tired and didn't deal with it because I haven't personally experienced as much noise doing that. I believe the solution is as simple as connecting each wire that we are switching to the other end of it's own coil, shorting it out. I've updated my diagram to reflect this... I even did pole 2 even though it's not really necessary for that coil but it made things nicely symmetrical. If you see any other mental slips feel free to point them out.

 

[Artie]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Nicely played P-Man. I'm in a "mellow" mood right now, so I don't have the inclination to brain-storm your mods, but the one thing to double check is . . . does the phase switch now short out the output? I don't think so, but I've not traced it all out.

Tomorrow . . . I'll double-check ya.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Thank you very much PMan and all the others for your help.
First I wanted to connect the 2 switches by this way http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2_p_rails_2v_2t_3w_2mt. So I switched each pickup between this 3 positions Rail/Humbucker/P90.
And I thought the middle two positions of the rotary switch switched between series and parallel (within each pickup connected in series). But I understand my way to think is just theorical and a bit (lot) confused.
Now I have to study your diagram to understand what you did an what I didnt. I want to thank you again for the diagram, and your experience (your guitar you wired the way you show me). I will come back with questions if you agree. It will be the first step.
The second one when I will receive the pickups. I'm waiting for them. So I will say you how it sounds...

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Ok I just understand what you mean when you said "where you have two wires connected to the same lug. Those wires will always be connected no matter what the switch position". I understand too that if I connect two wires at the begining I can't use them anymore separately.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Ok I just understand what you mean when you said "where you have two wires connected to the same lug. Those wires will always be connected no matter what the switch position". I understand too that if I connect two wires at the begining I can't use them anymore separately.

Now I understand something else : Because of the end of my diagram, the 2 volume hot points going to the jack hot point, the 2 pickups can't be in series mode. So I would prefere to get a pickup selector than a phase switch wich is said to be an useless combinaison with prails pickup.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

First, I'd like to make it clear that we have two pickups which each have two coils. When you specify series or parallel operation, you need to be clear if you're talking about the two coils within each pickup, or the combination of both pickups. For example, the pickups could be wired with their coils in parallel but in series with each other. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you want for each switch position.

Thank you very much PMan and all the others for your help.
First I wanted to connect the 2 switches by this way http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2_p_rails_2v_2t_3w_2mt. So I switched each pickup between this 3 positions Rail/Humbucker/P90.

I did change the toggles to on/on/on, but if you study my diagram you'll find that what I drew does pretty much exactly that, when the pickup is in series. The extra wires are to make it work when the pickup is in parallel.

And I thought the middle two positions of the rotary switch switched between series and parallel (within each pickup connected in series). But I understand my way to think is just theorical and a bit (lot) confused.

You were on the right track to get the pickups in series with each other. I can't see a way to do that and get the series/parallel operation within each pickup, so I drew the middle two positions with the pickups in parallel with each other. Keep in mind that with the pickups in series(if we get it working) they act like one large pickup so you can't have individual volume and tone controls for that setting. You can choose whether to use the neck or bridge's controls.

Like I said earlier, I can also draw it so that position three is: both P90 coils in series, in parallel with both rails in series. If that makes any sense at all. It's a pretty cool sound.

Now I understand something else : Because of the end of my diagram, the 2 volume hot points going to the jack hot point, the 2 pickups can't be in series mode. So I would prefere to get a pickup selector than a phase switch wich is said to be an useless combinaison with prails pickup.

But the six-way is your pickup selector, right? I'm not sure what you want here. Having the pickups out of phase with each other is not totally unusable because you have two volume controls and so can adjust the cancellation.

---------------------------

Lastly, here's what I drew:
1) Bridge, coils in series
2) Bridge, coils in parallel
3) Both pickups, coils in series, combined in parallel
4) Both pickups, coils in parallel, combined in parallel
5) Neck, coils in series
6) Neck, coils in parallel

All positions allow the use of a P90/both/rail toggle for each pickup.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

First, I'd like to make it clear that we have two pickups which each have two coils. When you specify series or parallel operation, you need to be clear if you're talking about the two coils within each pickup, or the combination of both pickups. For example, the pickups could be wired with their coils in parallel but in series with each other. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you want for each switch position.

When I don't say anything about coils I mean they are in serie, but you're right we need to be precise. So I will

I did change the toggles to on/on/on, but if you study my diagram you'll find that what I drew does pretty much exactly that, when the pickup is in series. The extra wires are to make it work when the pickup is in parallel.

Yes, the way you use the toogles On/On/On is great. I didn't know this combinaison. Thank you to make me discover it.

You were on the right track to get the pickups in series with each other. I can't see a way to do that and get the series/parallel operation within each pickup, so I drew the middle two positions with the pickups in parallel with each other. Keep in mind that with the pickups in series(if we get it working) they act like one large pickup so you can't have individual volume and tone controls for that setting. You can choose whether to use the neck or bridge's controls.

Yes that is the combinaison I would try to get. And I'm very happy to grow in my understanding so I can try.

Like I said earlier, I can also draw it so that position three is: both P90 coils in series, in parallel with both rails in series. If that makes any sense at all. It's a pretty cool sound.

Ok I keep this other solution in mind.

But the six-way is your pickup selector, right? I'm not sure what you want here. Having the pickups out of phase with each other is not totally unusable because you have two volume controls and so can adjust the cancellation.

Another selector pickup instead of phase switch isn't a good idea...
---------------------------

Lastly, here's what I drew:
1) Bridge, coils in series
2) Bridge, coils in parallel
3) Both pickups, coils in series, combined in parallel
4) Both pickups, coils in parallel, combined in parallel
5) Neck, coils in series
6) Neck, coils in parallel

All positions allow the use of a P90/both/rail toggle for each pickup.

I keep your configuration as the better one I got now.
I still studying to get
1) Bridge, coils in series
2) Bridge, coils in parallel
3) Both pickups, coils in series, combined in series (with bridge's controls)
4) Both pickups, coils in series, combined in parallel
5) Neck, coils in series
6) Neck, coils in parallel


I show you something soon!

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

So it is

I used clear turquoise for white wire
I will check the diagram again tomorow, when my mind will be clearer.
The file : http://fapey.free.fr/Aria/WD3.jpg
Perhaps there is still some mystakes but I'm very happy because I think I understood how it works...
thanks for your help!

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Now the same diagram but we can see precisely the way to wire the rotary switch

The only time I need to use twice the same wire is for the green wire coming from the phase switch and going to C3-2 and C3-6 positions.
There is never more than 3 wires for a pin (3 is enough!)
The file : http://fapey.free.fr/Aria/WD4.odg

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

You're still a bit confused - for example red is connected to lug 2 of pole 1, which is connected to C3 L1, which is connected to P3 L2 and P3 L6 which are both connected to ground, and to P1 L5 & L6, which are connected to white. So then, with the bridge pickup's on/on/on in the center position, it will be on and split to the P-90 coil all the time. Also, with the rotary in position 2, it'll be off because P1 C2 is indirectly connected to green so black will short completely out.

I've attached a quick simplification of all the connections being made.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

:bigeyes2:
what happened?
:eek2:

 

[Artie]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

What he's trying to explain is that the "C" terminal of each switch wafer, (C1, C2, C3, C4), are the only terminals that actually switch. You have nothing connected to C3 and C4, so those switch positions are simply acting as terminal blocks. Everything is just shorted together as P-man drew it up.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Ok it was a big mistake!!!
Now I'm sure the Pman wiring diagram is the best solution.
So the last question : about the split switches. It seems to me green and black wires should be inverted. Am I right?

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

last one?
http://fapey.free.fr/Aria/WD5.odg

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

Swapping the black and green isn't correct, but I think after giving it a second look my wiring around the on/on/on isn't correct, either. I'll be busy this weekend so it may have to wait, but I'll be back.

EDIT: Here's the correction. The explanation is coming when I have time.

 

[Tripi]

Re: P-rails wiring diagram, is it good?

THank you ParameterMan for the time you give me...

I can see now why swapping the black and green isn't correct. Rotary switch in parallel position 2 and 6 (and 4), switch split doesn't work anymore. I always get full humbucker.

In your first diagram, rotary switch in series position (1, 3, 5), white was not connected (to black and red) in split switch up position, and red was not connected (to white and green) in split switch down position, so split didn't work. That is the reason why in the last diagram you don't connect red and white in the rotary switch, but again from the split switch. I imagine.