Passive bass pickups with active EQ--underrated setup?

[chadd]

Does the G&L L series count? Even the bass and treble controls are passive, lets you use passice mode with an active mode which brings up the volume to line level, then top boost mode which cuts through perfectly and doesn’t inspire me to gut it and put in a more typical active system because it sounds perfect as is.



Right on. When my band recorded our second album, this $200 bass I got for our bassist as a backup, he noticed it had a comfortable spacing, but more importantly the bridge pickup placement gave it a very distinct growl he preferred over his SR. I dropped a QP in the bridge, added an ARTEC 2 band to enhance that sound he loved so much (plus changing the DR hi-beams every other song) and it became the bass sound for it which was effective enough to be notable to the reviewers.

We tri-amped it between some very clean and edge-of-breakup amps and to this day it sounds awesome. Very chunky and articulate.

I'm a guitar player but have a dual DI system for my bass. I use a buffered split and send one channel to a Tech21 VT Deluxe and the other side goes to a Big Muff in front of an MXR DI. Tons of versatility and can even get by if anything goes down as both DIs can run on phantom power.

 

[Inflames626]

Interesting stuff, guys. I'm generally not up to snuff on all the bi-amped/tri-amped stuff (although I'm surprised the Billy Sheehan dual output stuff isn't more common). It's that whole impedance/level matching and whatnot thing.

In software it seems kind of unnecessary--just a way to isolate parts of the frequency spectrum. My guess is you can handle this with a multiband compressor and/or dynamic EQ. But live I'm betting it's pretty cool.

I knew a guy at GIT who had a 90s Parker Nitefly (one of the good, expensive ones) and used to bi-amp his guitar rig because he was in a 3 piece, one guitar band. Huge sound.

 

[Inflames626]

I'm still figuring out how to "do" bass in my workflow--that is, what balance of DI to amp signal I like, whether I'm going to isolate parts of the signal for EQ/mixing purposes and so forth. Seems to change with every project. I like a pretty up front but clean sound. I find Sansamp themed stuff doesn't steer me wrong most of the time, maybe blended with a Fender bass amp emulation.

Don't like a lot of grit or clank bass in my metal guitars. Sounds too much like the low end of the guitar and not its own separate instrument. Generally I dig an 80s Steve Harris tone for fills but something that gels more with the rhythm guitars on the low end.

I go by the standard, "If I were to figure this out by ear on bass, can I hear the bass well enough from the guitars for me to transcribe it accurately?" Sadly, that's often not the case as sacrifices need to be made during a mix.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I'm still figuring out how to "do" bass in my workflow--that is, what balance of DI to amp signal I like, whether I'm going to isolate parts of the signal for EQ/mixing purposes and so forth. Seems to change with every project. I like a pretty up front but clean sound. I find Sansamp themed stuff doesn't steer me wrong most of the time, maybe blended with a Fender bass amp emulation.

Don't like a lot of grit or clank bass in my metal guitars. Sounds too much like the low end of the guitar and not its own separate instrument. Generally I dig an 80s Steve Harris tone for fills but something that gels more with the rhythm guitars on the low end.

I go by the standard, "If I were to figure this out by ear on bass, can I hear the bass well enough from the guitars for me to transcribe it accurately?" Sadly, that's often not the case as sacrifices need to be made during a mix.

For me, bass is one of the instruments that needs the most work to sit in a mix.

I do have have a very different approach to bass than you do, so take this as a grain of salt.

I split my bass in 3, initially. First there's a 100% clean DI that I drastically lopass. It's been ages since I've mixed, but I remember it being like super drastic. Like 150Hz or something extreme like that. I compress and limit that to hell and back. I basically want it to have NO dynamics at all. I like the very low-end of my bass tone to be synth-like. I like a constant bed of low-end for the mix to sit on top of. I do that because, I don't know if you've noticed, but certain basses/pickups have different resonant frequencies. So it's not uncommon for it to, when you play a specific note, just jump out in a boomy unpleasant way. I also hipass at like 40 or 50 Hz. Like REALLY low, but I still want the lowest frequencies in my mix to come from the kick, personally.

Then there's another duplicate of the same DI. I duplicate that twice.

I usually run one of those duplicates through a compressor pedal and a clean-ish bass amp model. You got POD Farm. You can use the Gallien Krueger Model for that. I like a balanced to bright bass cab for that.

Then the other duplicate through a compressor pedal set to light compression, a dirty grindy bass OD pedal, a guitar pedal, or a full-on high-gain metal amp like a Recto and then a guitar cab. I like Greenbacks for that. The uglier it sounds, the better. That depends on how dirty you want that tone. I understand you like cleaner tones. I still recommend just a very very slight hint of breakup in there. Even the Steve Harris tone that you like has some grit in there. I find that 1. really helps further even the peaks from playing agressive, and 2. that helps the bass poke through the wall of high-gain guitars. Plust it also sounds heavy and aggressive. You don't want a Reggae bass tone on your Metal mixes, LOL. I EQ both of those to be treble/mid heavy and light on the bass. I then group both on a bus. I hipass that bus drastically. I like my bass tone pretty scooped, so I usually do so at like 1K (so that I'm left with a big gaping hole in the midrange). I also lopass them at like 3 or 4 K. I like sizzly guitars, so a sizzly bass just gets in the way. In then further compress just a tad to even out the remaining peaks poking through too much.

I recommend doing all your cab emulation within POD Farm so that you don't run into phase issues.

I then bus everything together and compress even a little more to even out the peaks. The trick is to split the compression in several stages so that your bass tone doesn't sound squashed and like it's pumping while it still sounds even. I mean that in very subtle ways. The only time I REALLY squash things out with a single compressor or limiter is on the very low-end foundation of the tone. The other are just 2-3dB stages together. 5 at max.

You seem to like a more old-school approach to bass tones, so maybe you can experiment with hipassing your "dirty" bus a lot lower and hipassing your low-end bus a tad bit higher. I recommend still keeping those low-mids really held back, though. To me, low mids just overall sound muddy in any instrument, but it's particularly bad on bass and VERY detrimental to the mix.

JMO.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Oh, and that's for a "rhythm" bass tone too. If your bass plays leads at one point, you're going to want that midrange for that section much like you EQ lead and rhythm guitars differently.

 

[Inflames626]

Yeah all that channel splitting and bussing is exactly what I was talking about. Seems everybody has their own method for bass. In metal it's probably the least glamorous instrument, but it takes the most work to get right in that genre.

I usually roll off guitars below 200 hz at times if I want it really tight in standard tuning. Bass would be an octave below this so maybe 100 hz for that. But then I also like rolling the kick off below 100 hz. Going below 50 hz in my experience leaves a little bit of mud in the kicks.

Again depends on the individual project and tuning. I definitely agree on a lot of garbage in the signal between 200 hz-800 hz on bass, maybe even 1000 hz. Generally I leave it flat between say 200 hz and 2 khz, only adding bumps or dips where needed to mesh better with the guitar.

Maybe a newer bass tone I like is the Dark Tranquillity tone on "Projector," but that is also much warmer and up front than the norm for metal. But they were going for an ambient feel and this was a softer album (probably the softest besides "Haven"). But it is the essence of their sound IMO. Makes them different from In Flames and At the Gates. I have always liked the bass tone on "Projector" because if I had to learn it by ear it is very easy to hear. Sounds good no matter the speaker size or volume as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4IIaVFuZ7Q&list=OLAK5uy_lISYv6CVeJnoPUe8XSCZgY331FzemR2DU&index=4

Something older like "Lethe" from "The Gallery" sounds much more like what I imagine an active pickup bass to sound like, or at least a passive bass playing through the bridge only.

Thanks. I appreciate the effort, Rex_Rocker .

 

[Inflames626]

Also, I find detuning a kick in software for a fuller sound can help a lot, as opposed to trying to add more low end to a higher kick. It doesn't have to be much. 1/2 step is good. Kicks detuned 1/2 step apart make fast double bass sound much more natural for a left foot/right foot feel.

 

[Inflames626]

Lethe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=453K_J_4gTI

Crimson Winds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGxuBrUrUis&list=OLAK5uy_k1LR2Sjg6hAuPiYiyob5v9wBQhbq9G6jI

Shadow Duet. Pretty perfect to me in the intro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGW7WzM6AnI&list=OLAK5uy_k1LR2Sjg6hAuPiYiyob5v9wBQhbq9G6jI&index=7

Through Ebony Archways. May actually be an acoustic bass. Pretty boomy. Snare snaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J_1oCe4Mck

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah all that channel splitting and bussing is exactly what I was talking about. Seems everybody has their own method for bass. In metal it's probably the least glamorous instrument, but it takes the most work to get right in that genre.

I usually roll off guitars below 200 hz at times if I want it really tight in standard tuning. Bass would be an octave below this so maybe 100 hz for that. But then I also like rolling the kick off below 100 hz. Going below 50 hz in my experience leaves a little bit of mud in the kicks.

Again depends on the individual project and tuning. I definitely agree on a lot of garbage in the signal between 200 hz-800 hz on bass, maybe even 1000 hz. Generally I leave it flat between say 200 hz and 2 khz, only adding bumps or dips where needed to mesh better with the guitar.

Maybe a newer bass tone I like is the Dark Tranquillity tone on "Projector," but that is also much warmer and up front than the norm for metal. But they were going for an ambient feel and this was a softer album (probably the softest besides "Haven"). But it is the essence of their sound IMO. Makes them different from In Flames and At the Gates. I have always liked the bass tone on "Projector" because if I had to learn it by ear it is very easy to hear. Sounds good no matter the speaker size or volume as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4IIaVFuZ7Q&list=OLAK5uy_lISYv6CVeJnoPUe8X SCZgY331FzemR2DU&index=4

Something older like "Lethe" from "The Gallery" sounds much more like what I imagine an active pickup bass to sound like, or at least a passive bass playing through the bridge only.

I would never hipass guitars that high. The low E's fundamental is 80-something Hz. I feel that by hipassing higher than the fundamental, I pretty much neuter all balls from palm-mutes.

I hipass my guitars at 60-something Hz because I tune to C. I like my guitars very full-range, and I kinda dread the whole current forum ethos that guitars should only be midrange and nothing else matters in a guitar tone.

Honestly, that's making me re-think how high I used to hipass my bass. But things get crowded down there. I remember my kick punched at 40something Hz because that was what the sample I was using was like. I used the Steven Slate Drums kick that Joey Sturgis used for the Crabcore bands, LOL.

JMO, of course.

 

[Inflames626]

I cut that high up because a lot of consumer grade speakers are just garbage, especially soundbars and phones. I listen to a 5.1 system on my desktop. I find it adds a little clarity. I also lo pass around 5khz to prevent a lot of crap in the high end. That's probably lower than a lot of people would go. For me the struggle is around 2 khz where everything competes--snare, guitar, bass pick attack, vocal.

 

[Inflames626]

I like to leave the 100 hz to 200 hz range for the bass to live in also.

I find chugs often depend upon compression settings and whether you want some mild pumping on the low end.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't lopass guitars at all these days. It's not like there's much going on up ther anyway. Most speakers tend to have a sever rolloff at like 5-6K. I like the little frying bacon texture to power chords, LOL. Makes me think "Swedish Death Metal".

I also used to use multiband compression on guitars to tame the palm-mutes, but these days, I just dial in my tones a little lighter on bass overall and have the palm-mutes hit hard when they need to.

I saw a vid with Josh Middleton where he says he doesn't hipass or lopass at all. I do love his tones, although I don't think Sylosis' mixes are his doing at all.

I do like my guitars very wide-range, like I said. And even though I was a bassist for the longest, the first thing I listen to in all mixes are the rhythm guitars and then the huge-sounding drums.

I love the bass tone on Alive or Just Breathing being very prominent. But at the same time, I think the guitar tone suffers from that being all wiry, thin, and scratchy. I also love the bass tone on Pantera records, especially from FBD and later, but I don't really play anything like Pantera, and I don't think their aesthetic would fit my style.

 

[El Dunco]

.

I’m right with you. I’m sick of aggressively hi-passed guitars. I get surgical with the guitar track’s low end in the studio, narrow cuts to wobbly “junk” frequencies, gentle dips where it may clash with the other instruments and lo-passing to where you can only just hear the difference for clarity.

I can’t abide the armchair engineer advice of lo-passing guitars at 200hz. It might make it easier to mix but to use construction as an analogy, to that’s like using really loose tolerances. I prefer purpose built, tight tolerances. EQd and balanced perfectly for the right balance of clarity in the mix and keeping the body intact and feeling the cabinet thump. To use one of our songs as an example, there’s a lot happening here but everything is crystal clear. When the guitars play on their own at 3:51 (and the all out thrashing before), you still hear the low end punching you in the chest.

 

[Chistopher]

This is why I leave this type of buisness to the sound guys. The only rules I know about mixing is always plug into a speaker sim then DI box before you go to the mixer.

 

[Inflames626]

For me a lot of this depends on "sizzle," "grit," "fry," etc., in the high end of the guitar signal, or as I call it, scratchiness. I find it competes with the cymbals if the guitar isn't dialed in right.

It's one reason why, for rhythms, out of SD's lineup I may go for a Custom instead of a Distortion. There's less breakup and more clarity. A single guitar with a scratchy pickup, maybe two, might be fine, but if I start adding on more guitars than that, it becomes a mess.

Something else is depending upon register on the neck cymbals and guitar solo notes can start to rub.

Mostly I find if you just start with a good pickup/sample instead of trying to salvage a bad one that saves you a lot of work later.

 

[Inflames626]

Something else is the percussive, palm muted low end of a guitar and the cabinet thump from that sounds very different from a bass, which doesn't really sound good palm muted in metal, IMO.

Tube sag settings in plugins also affect this, I think. I think of a longer, looser sag time as being associated with a Dual Rec sound that produces a pleasant sound.

A bass on chugs, especially if it's just a DI sound and isn't compressed, seems to lack a lot of punch, even though it does produce a very clean and articulate top end.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I've never had a problem with my guitars' high-end competing with cymbals, but then again, I've laways used pre-mixed cymbal samples (Steven Slate Drums). Although, TBH, his cymbals aren't very well-regarded. They do sound kinda thin, TBH.

I do undestand your approach to mixing is different than mine. You seem to go more for a tight Thrash Metal aesthetic, and I go more for a Swedish Death Metal aesthetic.

I don't really like narrow-sounding guitars in Metal, personally. I've not really spent much time judging other genre's productions. I do know, for example, I hate Fluff's approach to dialing in his tones. He seems to go very light on bass and very heavy on mids.

 

[Inflames626]

I've never had a problem with my guitars' high-end competing with cymbals, but then again, I've laways used pre-mixed cymbal samples (Steven Slate Drums). Although, TBH, his cymbals aren't very well-regarded. They do sound kinda thin, TBH.

I do undestand your approach to mixing is different than mine. You seem to go more for a tight Thrash Metal aesthetic, and I go more for a Swedish Death Metal aesthetic.

I don't really like narrow-sounding guitars in Metal, personally. I've not really spent much time judging other genre's productions. I do know, for example, I hate Fluff's approach to dialing in his tones. He seems to go very light on bass and very heavy on mids.

Fluff's sound to me is pretty thick but he writes what I called "dad riffs." It's very Godsmack-ish. Sully Erna used to work as a contractor I think, so I call it "carpenter rock." Beards and flannel. It's for guys who like to write riffs in drop tunings but don't do Paul Gilbert style stuff, which, despite its age, is still useful for developing alternate picking chops and doing something slightly more advanced--say Amon Amarth.

Fluff is super pedestrian. I can't think of a single original song of his. He's a guy who's famous because he makes videos for Gen Z kids wanting to learn recording, so he gets his name put on plugins, sample packs, and whatnot. Next thing you know he may try a guitar company. He's an influencer, not a real musician or recording artist.

Compare this to Kiko Loureiro who did his stuff in Angra and now Megadeth and puts out instructional guitar videos of real quality. Dirk Veurberen as well (loved Dirk in Scarve and Soilwork, although he doesn't put out many videos anymore).

YouTube guitarists/producers are essentially gear/software selling infomercials. Why should I buy an impulse response pack from one guy when another guy is selling something nearly identical, or I can just find free, open source IRs? That said, they're usually of a younger generation who weren't old enough to record/tour in the 90s, the last time metal music was truly marketable in terms of album sales. "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," might have shown this extend to 2006 or so, but the scene went underground again not by being buried but by there being so much content published online that good bands were hiding in plain sight.

Also by Swedish death metal, I think a lot depends on Stockholm vs. Gothenburg. Stockholm sound like old Entombed is a lot more raw. Gothenburg mostly sounded more polished but the bass in those mixes is in there more as a glue than as its own thing. I did think it was interesting in the mid 00s when Ola Flink of Soilwork was using Gibson basses. He had a really up front, vintage tone for a time.

Relative to 80s thrash metal, thumpy, felt kicks are getting more massive and clicky all the time. Double bass and blast beats used to be rare things used to impress. Now they are on all the time. Meanwhile guitar wants more low end, but tight low end. Between those two there really isn't anywhere for the bass to stand out, IMO.

It's not quite at 80s levels, but I think the bass in a lot of modern death metal is pretty suppressed in the mix, mostly to showcase the kick and low end of the guitars. It's heard as far as it is felt, but instead of hearing a distinct instrument, with the bass you're hearing a bridge between the kick and low end of the guitar that holds everything together.

 

[Inflames626]

Something else is on a lot of basses with dual coil soapbar pickups the mids tend to be scooped out. This seems really popular on metal basses right now--essentially 5 string hum canceling Jazz basses--whereas I prefer more of a PJ sound. Those scooped mids make the bass felt more than heard.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Fluff's sound to me is pretty thick but he writes what I called "dad riffs." It's very Godsmack-ish. Sully Erna used to work as a contractor I think, so I call it "carpenter rock." Beards and flannel. It's for guys who like to write riffs in drop tunings but don't do Paul Gilbert style stuff, which, despite its age, is still useful for developing alternate picking chops and doing something slightly more advanced--say Amon Amarth.

Fluff is super pedestrian. I can't think of a single original song of his. He's a guy who's famous because he makes videos for Gen Z kids wanting to learn recording, so he gets his name put on plugins, sample packs, and whatnot. Next thing you know he may try a guitar company. He's an influencer, not a real musician or recording artist.

Compare this to Kiko Loureiro who did his stuff in Angra and now Megadeth and puts out instructional guitar videos of real quality. Dirk Veurberen as well (loved Dirk in Scarve and Soilwork, although he doesn't put out many videos anymore).

YouTube guitarists/producers are essentially gear/software selling infomercials. Why should I buy an impulse response pack from one guy when another guy is selling something nearly identical, or I can just find free, open source IRs? That said, they're usually of a younger generation who weren't old enough to record/tour in the 90s, the last time metal music was truly marketable in terms of album sales. "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," might have shown this extend to 2006 or so, but the scene went underground again not by being buried but by there being so much content published online that good bands were hiding in plain sight.

Also by Swedish death metal, I think a lot depends on Stockholm vs. Gothenburg. Stockholm sound like old Entombed is a lot more raw. Gothenburg mostly sounded more polished but the bass in those mixes is in there more as a glue than as its own thing. I did think it was interesting in the mid 00s when Ola Flink of Soilwork was using Gibson basses. He had a really up front, vintage tone for a time.

Relative to 80s thrash metal, thumpy, felt kicks are getting more massive and clicky all the time. Double bass and blast beats used to be rare things used to impress. Now they are on all the time. Meanwhile guitar wants more low end, but tight low end. Between those two there really isn't anywhere for the bass to stand out, IMO.

It's not quite at 80s levels, but I think the bass in a lot of modern death metal is pretty suppressed in the mix, mostly to showcase the kick and low end of the guitars. It's heard as far as it is felt, but instead of hearing a distinct instrument, with the bass you're hearing a bridge between the kick and low end of the guitar that holds everything together.

Oh, yeah, I do like the Gothenburg sound more, but I do like Entombed's tones.

I think of Fluff kinda like that character Steve Buscemi plays that's like "Hello, fellow kids" or whatever. On his vids he's so excited about the new Tom Delonge sig. I'm like, dude... aren't you a little old for Pop Punk? LOL.