Pearly Gates CS Too Muddy/ Loose

[Jaymz77]

I just read that titles back to myself and cringed… I never thought i would fall out of love with my CS Pearly Gates.

I put them in my CS R0 about 5 years ago, since the stock Custombuckers were just crap to my ears, and they made the guitar sing. They were heaven.
But of late, I haven’t been playing the LP much since I’ve either been busy with life or playing one of my other instruments. Anyway, i picked up the LP for a strum the other week and it just sounded meh… I had a supply of a few different ALNICO magnets at home from previous projects so i thought i would do some tinkering. In the last few weeks I’ve tried A4 and UOA5 in the bridge. The UOA5 was the winner. The problem atm is the neck.
Ive tried A4, UOA5 and short A5 in the neck but i just cant get to a point where im happy. The A4 sounded good but the notes just didn’t blend together well, the UOA5 sounded good but there is just something in the mids that I didn’t like in the neck position. I then went back to the stock A2 and the mids were good but the loose bottom end was still there (derr) so i then tried a short A5. It was an improvement, the mids were nice, there was some nice bite to it, but the bottom end is still too loose for my liking.
Obviously I’ve fiddled with pickup height and pole piece height, and while i can make it better or worse, i just cant seem to get it to where i want it.

Before i got back to the UOA5 (which was the lesser of all the evils) i thought i would join the forum to see what others have to say. Ive been a fan of, and using, SD pickups for probably 30+ years, so it was probably about time i joined anyway.

Anyway, what say you my learned brethren?

 

[skelt101]

I’m not sure if he still posts here, but LtKojak would probably recommend an A3 in the neck to match the UOA5 in the bridge.

 

[skelt101]

You might also try shorter pole pieces with the short A5.

 

[Spaghetti Bolo]

Try A3, that will clean up the lows. If you still prefer the UA5, then get some different ones. All magnets are not created equal unfortunately.

 

[freefrog]

I'd start by checking how / with what the guitar is wired.

Reason: if something has changed, your experience might be due to the inner wiring with its parasitic capacitance.

There's a serious lenght of inner wires in a Les Paul. From pickups to pots, from pots to switch, from switch to output.

If the Les Paul is wired in the vintage way, it hosts braided shielded wire with cotton insulation.

If this cotton insulation has been "contamined" by moisture (coming from climate and/or woods), parasitic capacitance can be multiplied by 3, shifting down the resonant peaks of pickups and giving them a muddier sound...

See the following except, where a lab measurement shows 1165pF per meter for such a cable. It's enormous...
https://youtu.be/AUigjP6t4aI?t=2231

What I've wrote above is also explained and illustrated more in details by this video, beyond the 41th minute.

FWIW (something important although systematically overlooked IME).

 

[Jaymz77]

Thanks for the input so far.
I was reluctant to try A3 due to the Custombuckers that the PG’s replaced. They were weak as water. But that said, the PG’s are wound hotter, so it’s reasonable to assume they would sound different than the CB’s.
Before the CB’s get sold I should try their magnets in the PG’s and see what guess.

Out of curiosity, what are everyone’s views on letting magnets “settle” after being changed?
IME the biggest difference is heard after about 24 hours.

 

[hamerfan]

It depends on the strength of the magnet, but 24h should be enough.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

+1 on trying A3. Great for neck hums IME. Preserves the vintagey mids, lightens the lows, and you might just get a little extra sparkle up top.

 

[jeremy]

i do like a3 in the neck, less low mids/bass than a2 but kinda similar. if you want a sharper high end, uoa5 might be the way. if you wanna go a bit further... you could swap the screws for a higher carbon unit. like 1022 or something. short 1022 might be the ticket actually

 

[AniML]

This may go against the grain, but have a look at a Wolfetone Legend or Dr Vintage models. Fantastic interpretation of PAFs. Wolfe is a great guy and will patiently answer any and all questions

 

[Jaymz77]

Thanks all for the input.
I may as well try their A3 but it will need to be special in the PG’s because I really like the CB’s.
if I can’t get what I want from the PG’s I’ll look at something else but that’s going to open up a $$ rabbit hole I’d like to avoid for now.
I’ll check the rest of the wiring too what sort of capacitance should I be seeing on a neck pickup?

 

[Jaymz77]

***Edit***
DIDNT like the CBs

 

[freefrog]

I'll check the rest of the wiring too what sort of capacitance should I be seeing on a neck pickup?

That's not the kind of thing that one can see easily... It would require to pull off the whole wiring harness, to desolder the braided shielded wires from the pots then to measure them with a capacitance meter as Zollner does it in the video shared above (by putting one probe on their shield and the other on their center conductor... before to substract the capacitance of the probes from the results displayed. Some lab meters do that on request).

As shown by Zollner later in his video, electrically induced resonant peaks reveal indirectly what is the parasitic capacitance of a harness and that's how I use myself to guess if it's "right" or not. But it's not easy to measure either since it involves dedicated gear - ultra low impedance air coil as an exciter, then signal generator + oscilloscope or frequency response measurement software + precisely calibrated soundcard.

All that being said, IF a guitar has a vintage correct wiring harness and IF it seems to suffer from excessive parasitic capacitance, it shouldn't take hours to replace it with low capacitance multi-conductors cable - at least from neck pickup controls to switch then from switch to output jack for both pickups. Since it wouldn't require to bend tinned wires around the braided shielded cables to ground and tie them altogether, it should actually be easier to mount and it might help to bring back some clarity, IF the problem doesn't come from the pickup itself. I've done that on an Explorer recently for similar reasons and it made a noticeable difference. I like Mogami 2799 4-cond. cables in such cases, FWIW.


As you asked for something to "see,", you'll find below the "crude" resonant peaks of new vs old bridge humbuckers in the Explorer that I mentioned (I don't use any "integrator" to flatten the response, since such tests are just a way for me to check actual resonant frequencies and not to guess the whole frequency response of played pickup: I simply play and record them direct to the board to fullfil this second goal) .
The stock humbucker was hotter, but marginally: with only 0.6H of difference in inductance measurements, resonant peaks should have been close to each others.
But as shown by the pic, the lower capacitance of the new pickup + new wiring harness did cause a big difference since the resonant peak shifted up of +/- 1500hz (!). Proportionally, all frequencies above 3khz became 3dB to 6dB louder and the new pickup is therefore massively clearer sounding than the old one... Same thing with the neck PU: I've not the related screenshot at disposal right now but it was similar.

FWIW. HTH.

 

[Jaymz77]

Thanks for that comprehensive reply.
I don’t think the cabling is the issue tbh. I think it’s just how the PG neck responds to a given magnet type.
I’ve actually put the UOA5 back in (bridge has it too) and it’s much better in the low end, not as loose.
I probably liked the short A5 mids and treble better in the neck, but the low end made it not to my liking. The UOA5 is still nice in the mids and treble but the bass is tighter.
I never got to try the short A5 in the bridge, I’d kinda like to, but I do also like the UOA5 and I’m a bit over all the swapping for now. I don’t want to try it only to swap back. Maybe one day. I also don’t want to make the PGs too T Top like. I want to keep the PAF character. UOA5 seems to be the go.
Thanks for the help.

 

[freefrog]

I don’t think the cabling is the issue tbh. I think it’s just how the PG neck responds to a given magnet type.

The only reason why I've evoked the wiring is that you've described your experience with PG's as going from "heaven" to "meh"... Such changes can certainly be due to an evolution of our tastes but if they have a physical origin, it might be in what I've explained.

Regarding magnets, I see what you mean since my last topic here about mag swapping in a PG was praising the choice of... UOA5. ;-)

It's typically a very special blend IME: as an A5, it holds strong magnetic charges allowing more clarity but as an unoriented alloy, it causes the same kind of slower transients than isotropic AlNi(Co)'s... Best of both worlds, so to speak. Did put a pair of UOA5 in the last set of boutique P.A.F. clones that I've mag swapped, BTW.

Enough useless geeky rambling: Enjoy with your guitar.