Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

[Rev Donzo]

Lets try to keep pickup making talk and shared knowledge of all aspects of do-it-yourself-pickup making -- here under one thread-ski -- if all goes well it may be valut worthy?:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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HERES A WORTHY ADDITION FROM BILL TURNER
ABOUT Those 25 DB mid boost --that are actualy 12db when in bypass mode and they then can add anoter 12db making it 25db..

also the required boost to mate a single coils volume to a humbucker is only 6db of boost required to match a single to a humbucker.
typically a mid boost doesn`t have a peak frequency. A group of frequencies from about 200 HZ to about 1K HZ are emphasized in the form of what`s called a shelving equalizer, but don`t get the idea that just because the roll off frequency is at 200 HZ that you`re safe from hum.

If you consider that frequencies below 500 HZ are in the hummer range, the boost gain will obviously increase the pickups sensitivity to 60 HZ noise harmonics even if 60 HZ has no gain in the circuit. You are still increasing the gain at 120,240,480 HZ and so on. You are still raising the gain at 60 HZ because the roll off is not a sharp drop, and depending on the circuit design you could easily have 8 to 10 db of gain at 60 HZ with an overall 25 db boost.

25db is way too much gain. Two things, the Clapton mid boost is not 25 db of gain, that is to say that the Clapton mid boost has two stages. The boost control is already elevated at a gain of 12 db in the so called bypass mode, while boosting adds an additional 12 db. Since there is no true bypass or passive mode you are not starting from zero and taking your signal up 25 db, you are starting from 12 db and going up 12 db. This 25db boost thing has found its way into guitar culture without real consideration for what these specs really mean.

When I designed the EMG-SPC, which by the way was a request from Fender when they were attempting to purchase EMG in the early eighties, I took the approach that the gain of the circuit should approximate the output of a PAF style humbucker. The output differences between the single coil and the humbucker were not that far off, raising the gain only 6 db provided what was needed.

I know it is difficult wading through the offerings in the market without having understandable info. It`s a bit like the carnies who invite you to toss the ring around the bottle to win the the 6 foot teddy bear and walking away without the prize. Do you go back and try again ?

Bill Tuner ( barrowed from FDP thread) by RD

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Winding Rick Holmstrom an early Broadcaster Wrap at this moment, I waiting for the chems' to dry a bit-- Rick likes Early Gatemouth -- I'm going to wind a low dc broadcaster up-- this should nail it!

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

So in this thread we could ask and try to understand pups a bit better? Seems like a good idea.

Maybe we should start with defining some terms but most people who got to this forum have at some point looked up most of the terms.

I have a few questions but I'll ask them topic at a time.

How does one achieve a specific timbre. For instance what can he add or subtratc so that he gets closer to his goal (pup height, width, magnet sizes, wire gauge, number of winds, etc). What takes care of what (detail, attack, bass, response, the works).

 

[gripweed]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

For the guy who is interested in making his own pickups for fun -- how much can he expect to spend? How hard is it to learn the skill but not the art part of it? Can I make a decent sounding pickup without years of experience or knowledge of the art (i.e. scatterwinding, special sauce or whatever ya call it?)

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Maybe we are asking questions too advanced for our sake. I wonder if we shouldn't start with the basics.

For instance, how can we wind pups (methods for hand winding and some way of buiding a basin winder) and then move to the decent pups or the pups that target a specific tone (or where you just want to alter on something you previouslly did).

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

So in this thread we could ask and try to understand pups a bit better? Seems like a good idea.COOL patrol!

Maybe we should start with defining some terms but most people who got to this forum have at some point looked up most of the terms. A-huh - we can try anyways -- a little at a time - here and there and everywher--??

I have a few questions but I'll ask them topic at a time.ok - -- but wait --what no asprin required ?--

How does one achieve a specific timbre. For instance what can he add or subtratc so that he gets closer to his goal (pup height, width, magnet sizes, wire gauge, number of winds, etc). What takes care of what (detail, attack, bass, response, the works)."Puppy Height " = The taller the dog the louder the bark and the deeper the bass- The shorter the dog the quieter the bark and the more high pitched. (same goes for moving pickups up and down]

Wide Coils IE --P-90's tend to be less focused -- ( poor learners!)
Skinny Coils - Strat-tele's..etc -- tend to be more focused ( fast learners!)

Magnets add power -- weaker magnets tend to be softer and have less output -- ( Please don't squeeze the Charmin!]
Stronger magnets = more output and more snappy-ier notes.. ( hey EASY--YOUR TOO SNAPPY)

WIRE GAUGES - 42AWG tends to be bigger and bell-tone like ( brrrring "Telephone call for Mongo")
Wire 43-44-45-46 tends to be easier on the ears -- no so much "Glass bottle"/"bell" -- ( ahhhh Q-tips that gental cotton swab)

Decreasing winds = brighter and less power
increasing winds = darker and more power ( we need more power Scotty - to get her up to warp speed)

 

[Stratman]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

So in this thread we could ask and try to understand pups a bit better? Seems like a good idea.COOL patrol!

Maybe we should start with defining some terms but most people who got to this forum have at some point looked up most of the terms. A-huh - we can try anyways -- a little at a time - here and there and everywher--??

I have a few questions but I'll ask them topic at a time.ok - -- but wait --what no asprin required ?--

How does one achieve a specific timbre. For instance what can he add or subtratc so that he gets closer to his goal (pup height, width, magnet sizes, wire gauge, number of winds, etc). What takes care of what (detail, attack, bass, response, the works)."Puppy Height " = The taller the dog the louder the bark and the deeper the bass- The shorter the dog the quieter the bark and the more high pitched. (same goes for moving pickups up and down]

Wide Coils IE --P-90's tend to be less focused -- ( poor learners!)
Skinny Coils - Strat-tele's..etc -- tend to be more focused ( fast learners!)

Magnets add power -- weaker magnets tend to be softer and have less output -- ( Please don't squeeze the Charmin!]
Stronger magnets = more output and more snappy-ier notes.. ( hey EASY--YOUR TOO SNAPPY)

WIRE GAUGES - 42AWG tends to be bigger and bell-tone like ( brrrring "Telephone call for Mongo")
Wire 43-44-45-46 tends to be easier on the ears -- no so much "Glass bottle"/"bell" -- ( ahhhh Q-tips that gental cotton swab)

Decreasing winds = brighter and less power
increasing winds = darker and more power ( we need more power Scotty - to get her up to warp speed)

You are the MAN!

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

I've been wanting that sort of info for some time now. Not that I'm going to do anything with it at this point but always been curious.

Thanks for the help Rev.

Dumb questions on polarity and stuff like that to folow:

HB's
1) A bucker: I assume both coils have the same polarity as it share the same magnet but are the coils wound in the same direction?

2) What would happen if they were in oposite directions? 3) Or assuming different directions is the way to do it what would happen if they were in the same direction?

4) When in a two bucker setup are both buckers identical in this aspect? Meaning do both have the same wind direction and same magnetic polarity or is this different? 5) Again what would happen if things were to get messed up?

Singles.

6) In a 3 single coil guitar the neck and bridge are identical but the middle has the opposite polarity and wind direction, correct? (Some one told me the magnets were identical in polarity or wind direction but is kind of confusing as makers call the RW/RP...)

 

[Gibsononly]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

HB's
1) A bucker: I assume both coils have the same polarity as it share the same magnet but are the coils wound in the same direction?

2) What would happen if they were in oposite directions? 3) Or assuming different directions is the way to do it what would happen if they were in the same direction?

4) When in a two bucker setup are both buckers identical in this aspect? Meaning do both have the same wind direction and same magnetic polarity or is this different? 5) Again what would happen if things were to get messed up?

Singles.

6) In a 3 single coil guitar the neck and bridge are identical but the middle has the opposite polarity and wind direction, correct? (Some one told me the magnets were identical in polarity or wind direction but is kind of confusing as makers call the RW/RP...)

#1:The coils are wound in the same direction and wired in series. The magnet is charged through the width so the coils are opposite polarity. Typically, the screw coil is south and the stud coil is north.

#2:Clockwise or counter-clockwise makes no difference, it's all in the series connection.

#4:They are the same. And Peter Green happens if they are opposite polarity ( out of phase)

#6: RW/RP is reverse wind/ reverse polarity. The middle pickup is wound in the opposite direction and has the magnet polarity opposite as well.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Thanks. That took out some doubts.

EDIT2: It also created some...

#4:They are the same. And Peter Green happens if they are opposite polarity ( out of phase)

#6: RW/RP is reverse wind/ reverse polarity. The middle pickup is wound in the opposite direction and has the magnet polarity opposite as well.

So, HBs have the same coil direction and the same polarity. So if one were to keep the polarity the same but have the windings reversed it wouldn't have much effect on a bucker unless you were to split it, I assume.

But in this case we have the same polarity with diferent windings. This is a bit different from the strat set up where, for instance, the neck and mid have not only different wind directions but also different magnetic polarity. Is this due to the fact that in a two bucker set up one has a total of 4 coils or am I missing something?

And one thing. In a bucker, the magnets polarities is orientated in such a way that one pole is in the direction of the pole pieces while the other goes to the slugs. How does this work on a strat? Is on pole on top and the other at the bottom? And on a P90 that has (I believe) 2 magnets, how is this done?

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm a bit out of my league and want to understand all this.

 

[Gibsononly]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Thanks. That took out some doubts.

EDIT2: It also created some...



So, HBs have the same coil direction and the same polarity. So if one were to keep the polarity the same but have the windings reversed it wouldn't have much effect on a bucker unless you were to split it, I assume.

But in this case we have the same polarity with diferent windings. This is a bit different from the strat set up where, for instance, the neck and mid have not only different wind directions but also different magnetic polarity. Is this due to the fact that in a two bucker set up one has a total of 4 coils or am I missing something?

And one thing. In a bucker, the magnets polarities is orientated in such a way that one pole is in the direction of the pole pieces while the other goes to the slugs. How does this work on a strat? Is on pole on top and the other at the bottom? And on a P90 that has (I believe) 2 magnets, how is this done?

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm a bit out of my league and want to understand all this.

Same winding direction on each coil but a different polarity, one being south and one being north. That is how it "bucks hum". Because of the internal wiring of the coils to one another it is in effect RW/RP. If you wound one clockwise and the other counter clockwise it would not make a difference, other that the way they would be wired to each other. The finish wires are connected together for series when both are clockwise but it would be a start wire and a finish wire if one was one opposite. They are both wound the same direction for ease of manufacture.

The RW/RP single in the middle is exactly that. Wound in the opposite direction with the opposite magnetic pole up. The neck and bridge are the same. If I understand your question correctly then yes, this is because you are dealing with three coils instead of one. When you are using position 2 or 4 you effectively have a humbucking pickup, the coils are just a little further apart. There is no difference in the way hum cancelling is accomplished with either setup.

On a strat the magnets are oriented along the length, actually on all fender style single coils. A P-90 uses two bar magnets, oriented along the width like a humbucker mag, except they are placed like pole to like pole at the screws.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

I should have understood that. Thanks, you explained it pretty well.

I was kind of thinking a lot of people would be coming to this thread... maybe it will warm up.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Ok, if no one has any questions I gonna pull a "semi-walters" (semi because I really want to know and not gonna ask 31351435453434 questions in one post).

Ok, sometimes you hear how this or that pup has a special wind (to achieve some kind of timber), how is this done. I thought you just wound wire around the magnet/whatever nice and neat and stop at a certain number. Any hints? And what can be done to alter what factor in the sound?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Some misinformation here -- the actual winding of the two coils is in the same direction, but the wiring of it is dead opposite.

You solder the two coil starts (or finishes) together in series which means that even though they are wound the same way, the current of one coil is flowing in the opposite direction of the other, which is then compensated for by the fact that it is on the opposite pole of the magnet which puts it electrically back in phase.

As for how to create the tone or timbre, there's a million different ways to do it. Obviously the magnet and the length of the coil and/or guage of the coil wire will make a difference. Here are some other ways:

1) The WIDTH of the coil -- in other words, how big a portion of the string does this pickup "see"? A wider coil will see a longer section of the string, therefore making it pick up longer wavelengths, i.e., bass/low mids.

2) The pattern of the wind. The tighter and/or neater (evenly layered like a perfectly made bed) the wind, the brighter/colder it will be and the more bite it will have, while the more scattered and loose it is, the sweeter and wider, or even darker it will be, depending on how scattered it is.

The reason for the wind mattering is that is that it apparently changes the capacitance within the coil. Beyond that, I don't know how/why it works. It just does.

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

oop's I deleted the wrong message??? hummm--

they both make me PUKE!

LOL That does not apply to this thread folks-- yikes!

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Some misinformation here -- the actual winding of the two coils is in the same direction, but the wiring of it is dead opposite.

yep one gets wound Clockwise and the other CC--

 

[Gibsononly]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

You could wind them opposite, but it usually is not done in a humbucker. It's just wired to effectively make it RW/RP.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

You could wind them opposite, but it usually is not done in a humbucker. It's just wired to effectively make it RW/RP.

You got it! They are physically wound in the same direction but they are wired in the opposite direction to make up for the fact that they are sitting on opposite poles of the bar magnet.

If you take off that tape and look closely at a humbucker where the leads are, you can see a hole in the bottom of both bobbins, each with a wire lead coming out of it. That is the START of both coils, "start" meaning the start of the physical winding process, not where the current starts necessarily. But both starts are soldered together either right there if it's braided 2-conductor or at the other end of your 4-conductor lead (the red and white soldered together per Duncan color code). The finish leads you can see coming out of the tape around the sides of each coil.

So the current starts in the finish lead of one coil, comes out the start lead of that coil, then goes into the start lead of the 2nd coil, and finally out the finish lead of the 2nd coil.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Cool, thanks, I'm gonna digest it now.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pickup Makers Thread - 4 - those who wind or want to know how

Ok, going a bit backwards on the whole process.

How does one wind a pup in a simple manner? I know you can do it by hand but I doubt one will manage to wind consistently so do you have any ideas on a simple winder (I know about the Schatten but if one is to wind his own pups why not go all out DIY and make a simple winder too)?