Pickup mids vs amp mids
- Thread starter stef89
- Start date
gregory
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
It depends heavily on where the midrange control falls in the signal chain. For Marshalls the EQ generally comes at the end and has no bearing on how your preamp distortion is shaped.
Supposing the midrange comes after the first gain stage, what is the topology? What are the values of the components? IOW, where does the midrange fall? What's the width? How much of it is dependent on the other controls? This is without addressing the various methods of fixed tone shaping going on at and between preamp gain stages.
Can the mids from pickup make a difference that can't be dialed in by tone controls? Absolutely!
It depends heavily on where the midrange control falls in the signal chain. For Marshalls the EQ generally comes at the end and has no bearing on how your preamp distortion is shaped.
Supposing the midrange comes after the first gain stage, what is the topology? What are the values of the components? IOW, where does the midrange fall? What's the width? How much of it is dependent on the other controls? This is without addressing the various methods of fixed tone shaping going on at and between preamp gain stages.
Can the mids from pickup make a difference that can't be dialed in by tone controls? Absolutely!
Last edited:
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
"Midrange" on the guitar does not equal "Midrange" on the amp and "Midrange" is even different from amp to amp. A graphic eq can do wonders, but I don't I would not recommend one fixing a pickup that you don't like, especially since there are so many options out there (not to mention mods to the pickup itself.)
"Midrange" on the guitar does not equal "Midrange" on the amp and "Midrange" is even different from amp to amp. A graphic eq can do wonders, but I don't I would not recommend one fixing a pickup that you don't like, especially since there are so many options out there (not to mention mods to the pickup itself.)
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Are you saying that you cannot add mids to a guitar with less pronounced midrange by adjusting the mids on the amp?
Are you saying that you cannot add mids to a guitar with less pronounced midrange by adjusting the mids on the amp?
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
I am talking in the ball park here or in general. If I am plugged straight into a Marshall 1959 with all knobs set at 12 o clock with a guitar with less mids and a pickup with less mids turning the middle button to say 3 o clock will not do the same trick as adding a new pickup with more mids in it?
I am talking in the ball park here or in general. If I am plugged straight into a Marshall 1959 with all knobs set at 12 o clock with a guitar with less mids and a pickup with less mids turning the middle button to say 3 o clock will not do the same trick as adding a new pickup with more mids in it?
Blille
Well-known member
Pickup mids vs amp mids
I've personally had the opposite where the mids in a pickups overwhelmed the tone and it lacked clarity and I couldn't add that later. And I love mids, trust me.
I guess you can tweak to a certain extent or add more of something but you can't add (with amp or pedals) what you don't have (in the pickup)?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've personally had the opposite where the mids in a pickups overwhelmed the tone and it lacked clarity and I couldn't add that later. And I love mids, trust me.
I guess you can tweak to a certain extent or add more of something but you can't add (with amp or pedals) what you don't have (in the pickup)?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Not at all, just saying that, IMO, it is best to treat the problem at the pickup level. Also, the "mid" on a Marshall is different than the "mid" on a Fender, Vox, etc.
Just a different way of going about things, I rarely change the controls on my amp and pedals even when changing guitars. So to me, get the guitar right and worry about tweaking later. Just my way and my suggestion.
Not at all, just saying that, IMO, it is best to treat the problem at the pickup level. Also, the "mid" on a Marshall is different than the "mid" on a Fender, Vox, etc.
Just a different way of going about things, I rarely change the controls on my amp and pedals even when changing guitars. So to me, get the guitar right and worry about tweaking later. Just my way and my suggestion.
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Yea I understand and agree really. I have my amps set at 12 o clock or neutral/flat as some say. So adding more treble or mids on a amp is alitle bit like artificial eq in some way? or what? I am not wery knowledgeable about these things.
Yea I understand and agree really. I have my amps set at 12 o clock or neutral/flat as some say. So adding more treble or mids on a amp is alitle bit like artificial eq in some way? or what? I am not wery knowledgeable about these things.
gregory
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
If you want as flat as possible EQ on a Marshall you have to put the mids on 10 and treble at 0 and bass just above 0.
While 12 o'clock is is the physical middle of each control it definitely ain't flat; not even remotely close to flat.
If you want as flat as possible EQ on a Marshall you have to put the mids on 10 and treble at 0 and bass just above 0.
While 12 o'clock is is the physical middle of each control it definitely ain't flat; not even remotely close to flat.
Last edited:
gregory
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
A tepid yes but only when the preamp of the 1959 is being run as clean and as dull as possible: plugging into Input II at low volume.
Last edited:
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
The interplay and overlaps are where all the fun is in tweaking gear.
Raising the mids on the amp can do exactly as you need or it sometimes could give you too much in a specific band,,or not enough. lol
Finding the right combinations for one's own rig is really the essential thing. (boosts/od and speakers are also huge parts of the equation)
The interplay and overlaps are where all the fun is in tweaking gear.
Raising the mids on the amp can do exactly as you need or it sometimes could give you too much in a specific band,,or not enough. lol
Finding the right combinations for one's own rig is really the essential thing. (boosts/od and speakers are also huge parts of the equation)
gregory
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
It's really doesn't have to be all that complicated.
What is the difference between putting an EQ after your guitar jack and putting one in the effects loop (or mixing console)?
If you're running clean there isn't much. If you're running hi-gain then more so. Mid-gain? Lots!
It's really doesn't have to be all that complicated.
What is the difference between putting an EQ after your guitar jack and putting one in the effects loop (or mixing console)?
If you're running clean there isn't much. If you're running hi-gain then more so. Mid-gain? Lots!
stratguy23
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
OP, this isn't a stupid question - EQ can get quite involved and technical.
I'm with treyhaislip - shape your tone as early in the signal chain as possible. A strongly voiced pickup won't be able to be un-voiced by amp EQ. For example, take a high mids-emphasized pickup like the JB or 498T. You could drop the mids on the amp, but you'll still hear the JB or the 498T voice in the tone.
One reason not to rely on amp mids control to shape mids is that usually you only get one mids knob. Does it affect high mids, mid mids, or low mids? Or is the control interactive with other knobs, which is the case with some amps?
There's a whole lotta science out there - take, for example, this Gear Page thread:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/whats-a-baxandall-tonestack.805784
And this quote:
"The standard Fender midrange control does not really boost just
the midrange--it boosts ALL frequencies. In other words, it
decreases the insertion loss. This is why the value of the
midrange pot cannot be increased much past 10k or so: it will
render the treble and bass controls ineffective. This is perceived
as mid-boost because it does cancel some of the midrange cut, but
it cannot be a true boost because there is no way for the mid
control to elevate midrange levels any higher than bass or treble
levels. In fact, increasing mid control will actually boost the
bass and treble a bit."
I don't even understand how all that works, but I do know from experience that BMT controls vary wildly on what they do in different amps. It's better to get tone "right" as early as possible in the chain, i.e., at the guitar and pickup level.
OP, this isn't a stupid question - EQ can get quite involved and technical.
I'm with treyhaislip - shape your tone as early in the signal chain as possible. A strongly voiced pickup won't be able to be un-voiced by amp EQ. For example, take a high mids-emphasized pickup like the JB or 498T. You could drop the mids on the amp, but you'll still hear the JB or the 498T voice in the tone.
One reason not to rely on amp mids control to shape mids is that usually you only get one mids knob. Does it affect high mids, mid mids, or low mids? Or is the control interactive with other knobs, which is the case with some amps?
There's a whole lotta science out there - take, for example, this Gear Page thread:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/whats-a-baxandall-tonestack.805784
And this quote:
"The standard Fender midrange control does not really boost just
the midrange--it boosts ALL frequencies. In other words, it
decreases the insertion loss. This is why the value of the
midrange pot cannot be increased much past 10k or so: it will
render the treble and bass controls ineffective. This is perceived
as mid-boost because it does cancel some of the midrange cut, but
it cannot be a true boost because there is no way for the mid
control to elevate midrange levels any higher than bass or treble
levels. In fact, increasing mid control will actually boost the
bass and treble a bit."
I don't even understand how all that works, but I do know from experience that BMT controls vary wildly on what they do in different amps. It's better to get tone "right" as early as possible in the chain, i.e., at the guitar and pickup level.
evh_slash
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
What you have to understand is that pICKUP MIDS or mIDS before the amp slam the input and tubes harder, so we get a change in GAIN character and the FEEL of the amp.
Cranking the middle knob on your amp or your amp's graphic EQ (if using a mesa) aren't gonna have the same effect. it will just make your sound very boxy and like a foghorn, a very narrow barky monotonous sound. haha
Basically the rule of thumb is high MIDS going INTO AMP (i.e. mXR EQ pedal, or pickup with high mids) = GOOD, feels chunky, more gain, chewier, elastic/rubbery feel, the notes blossom and THWACK, easier to play, a bit less defined, everything gets a bit more pushed and dirtier. on the other hand, MIDS AFTER the preamp gain stage ie. Middle knob or EQ in the loop = BAD. Don't crank them. Your sound becomes covered in a thick blanket and loses that 3D huge wall of sound. The 'studio sheen' is lost. Sounds like a your voice when you have a blocked nose and a head cold. haha
The trick back in the 80's for those killer rock studio tones was to Boost the mids BEFORE the amp (broad Q, centred around 800Hz, perhaps also a boost at 1.2 - 1.6kHz), and then CUT the mids AFTER the amp (big cut at around 800Hz).
The best way to experiment this / see for yourself is to play through a Mesa Boogie Mark series amp with graphic EQ (2c+/3/4/5/5:25) , and use a Suhr koko boost (midboost pedal) in front of the amp. See how the low/mid/upper midboost settings on the pedal change the FEEL of the gain and how it feels to play.
OR another great example of Pickup mids effect on tone is a WAH PEDAL !!! A wah basically has a pot sweep that boosts the mids then the trebles as we press down on the pedal, and as we release we get a mid/treble cut. In other words its a pre-gain variable mid/treble filter. IF you were to turn the treble on your amp knob up to 10, it doesn't sound like a wah effect wah pedal does it ? It just gets bright and honky .
What you have to understand is that pICKUP MIDS or mIDS before the amp slam the input and tubes harder, so we get a change in GAIN character and the FEEL of the amp.
Cranking the middle knob on your amp or your amp's graphic EQ (if using a mesa) aren't gonna have the same effect. it will just make your sound very boxy and like a foghorn, a very narrow barky monotonous sound. haha
Basically the rule of thumb is high MIDS going INTO AMP (i.e. mXR EQ pedal, or pickup with high mids) = GOOD, feels chunky, more gain, chewier, elastic/rubbery feel, the notes blossom and THWACK, easier to play, a bit less defined, everything gets a bit more pushed and dirtier. on the other hand, MIDS AFTER the preamp gain stage ie. Middle knob or EQ in the loop = BAD. Don't crank them. Your sound becomes covered in a thick blanket and loses that 3D huge wall of sound. The 'studio sheen' is lost. Sounds like a your voice when you have a blocked nose and a head cold. haha
The trick back in the 80's for those killer rock studio tones was to Boost the mids BEFORE the amp (broad Q, centred around 800Hz, perhaps also a boost at 1.2 - 1.6kHz), and then CUT the mids AFTER the amp (big cut at around 800Hz).
The best way to experiment this / see for yourself is to play through a Mesa Boogie Mark series amp with graphic EQ (2c+/3/4/5/5:25) , and use a Suhr koko boost (midboost pedal) in front of the amp. See how the low/mid/upper midboost settings on the pedal change the FEEL of the gain and how it feels to play.
OR another great example of Pickup mids effect on tone is a WAH PEDAL !!! A wah basically has a pot sweep that boosts the mids then the trebles as we press down on the pedal, and as we release we get a mid/treble cut. In other words its a pre-gain variable mid/treble filter. IF you were to turn the treble on your amp knob up to 10, it doesn't sound like a wah effect wah pedal does it ? It just gets bright and honky .
Last edited:
gregory
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Funny to bring up a Mesa Mark amp. Because the tone stack comes so early in the preamp it is capable of overwhelming a pickup's response when the EQ section is run at the extremes in combination with higher amounts of gain, rendering pickup differences more as idiosyncrasies than major voice changes*. The tone control on a Mesa Mark (II and up) shape the amp's voice, in stark contrast to most Marshalls whose gain voicings tend to be at the mercy of the pickup.
(*) Unless you consider fizz from a Duncan Distortion to be a major change in voice from the lack of fizz from a Duncan Pegasus; which is completely understandable. This also leads to another point, the response/feel of a pickup cannot be compensated with amp settings (high output ceramic vs. vintage output AlNiCo II, for example).
Funny to bring up a Mesa Mark amp. Because the tone stack comes so early in the preamp it is capable of overwhelming a pickup's response when the EQ section is run at the extremes in combination with higher amounts of gain, rendering pickup differences more as idiosyncrasies than major voice changes*. The tone control on a Mesa Mark (II and up) shape the amp's voice, in stark contrast to most Marshalls whose gain voicings tend to be at the mercy of the pickup.
(*) Unless you consider fizz from a Duncan Distortion to be a major change in voice from the lack of fizz from a Duncan Pegasus; which is completely understandable. This also leads to another point, the response/feel of a pickup cannot be compensated with amp settings (high output ceramic vs. vintage output AlNiCo II, for example).
Last edited:
James Rock
Active member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Guitar tones are made from the fundamental and harmonics. All a mids control on the amp does is affect frequency that is present. If there is little harmonics in that frequency range an EQ will do little. Take a guitar and plug into a bass amp and play the high strings. The bass control on the amp barely does anything. Pickups have an inherent response in how they pickup the harmonics of a guitar they also have a resonant peak which is a small q boost at a specific frequency (amps generally have a much wider q then this). Now the first tube stage adds harmonics related to the frequency it gets. If the signal has lots of content it is going to add lots of harmonics as it is driven. More mids in a pickup is not usually just a boost of mid frequency like an EQ it can be anything from a different resonance peak to actually picking up the guitar differently. Harmonics is why you can't EQ an amp to sound like a fuzz pedal and vice versa. I personally like pickups with less mids and more open highs because I find it hard to EQ out a thick dark pickup.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
Guitar tones are made from the fundamental and harmonics. All a mids control on the amp does is affect frequency that is present. If there is little harmonics in that frequency range an EQ will do little. Take a guitar and plug into a bass amp and play the high strings. The bass control on the amp barely does anything. Pickups have an inherent response in how they pickup the harmonics of a guitar they also have a resonant peak which is a small q boost at a specific frequency (amps generally have a much wider q then this). Now the first tube stage adds harmonics related to the frequency it gets. If the signal has lots of content it is going to add lots of harmonics as it is driven. More mids in a pickup is not usually just a boost of mid frequency like an EQ it can be anything from a different resonance peak to actually picking up the guitar differently. Harmonics is why you can't EQ an amp to sound like a fuzz pedal and vice versa. I personally like pickups with less mids and more open highs because I find it hard to EQ out a thick dark pickup.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
Thing is, the idea of 'mids' covers a whole swath of frequencies. The pickup's mids might not be the amp's mids. I generally start with a clean sound I like, and then alter it with enough gain for sustain and no more. Thing is, altering the EQ of a pickup can only go so far if you don't like the sound of the pickup...it also won't do anything if you don't like the 'feel' of a pickup (dynamics, etc). If you go through some complex EQ-ing to fix the sound of a pickup, you have to do that every time you play that guitar, and if you get a new amp, etc...it is easier just to start with a sound you like.
Thing is, the idea of 'mids' covers a whole swath of frequencies. The pickup's mids might not be the amp's mids. I generally start with a clean sound I like, and then alter it with enough gain for sustain and no more. Thing is, altering the EQ of a pickup can only go so far if you don't like the sound of the pickup...it also won't do anything if you don't like the 'feel' of a pickup (dynamics, etc). If you go through some complex EQ-ing to fix the sound of a pickup, you have to do that every time you play that guitar, and if you get a new amp, etc...it is easier just to start with a sound you like.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Pickup mids vs amp mids
That's the thing. We have to start with a sound we like.
Can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse...as they say.
Regarding pickups that seem to be mid heavy, what I hear is a thickness and density to the sound. The space is all filled up.
The sound is thick and gooey and more opaque. Not as much breath as in pickups that guys describe as being scooped.
I don't hear the 59 as being scooped and never have.
I just hear it as being more transparent and with more breath and a sense of space to the sound. It's not all filled in.
I don't think you can create the same effect by turning the mids up or down on your amp.
That's the thing. We have to start with a sound we like.
Can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse...as they say.
Regarding pickups that seem to be mid heavy, what I hear is a thickness and density to the sound. The space is all filled up.
The sound is thick and gooey and more opaque. Not as much breath as in pickups that guys describe as being scooped.
I don't hear the 59 as being scooped and never have.
I just hear it as being more transparent and with more breath and a sense of space to the sound. It's not all filled in.
I don't think you can create the same effect by turning the mids up or down on your amp.
Similar threads
