Pickups for mahogany Tele???

[jumble jumble]

Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Those tiny differences on a scope can become big differences to the human brain connected to a good set of ears. Not only can human ears be an acutely sensitive instrument but sometimes its the subtle things that make or break the tone. And you can not seperate attack, sustain, and decay from tone, and woods certainly have more than a tiny affect on that.

Exact same argument people use to justify spending $3000 on a power cable for their CD player. People even claim to be able to see/heard differences in expensive HDMI cable when the digital data stream has been demonstrated to be identical onthebends level.

Just out of interest, has anyone got anything to support the argument that wood makes a noticeable difference that isn't entirely anecdotal? Everyone's just saying "I trust my ears" which again is exactly what audiophiles say when they've just bought a wooden volume knob for their amp and are claiming it's "night and day". Or "I've got an ash and an and Strat and they sound completely different", where again, n=1 and it's not data or proof at all.

I've got guitars here made of all the most popular woods and some of the less popular. If I record a bunch of clips, would anyone here like to take a Pepsi challenge and identify the woods used? Should be a piece of cake. Or if not, can you explain why not and how that doesn't contradict what you're saying about wood?

I'm not saying plywood is just as good (it depends on the ply). I'm certainly not saying polystyrene would be just as good, or air. I do think the neck has quite an effect, the body much, much less so. But basically the pickups and amp are 99% of it and any difference added by the body wood can be EQ'd out in seconds.


Sent from one of my four iPads

 

[jeremy]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

so does body shape effect anything? if the material of the body doesnt, then it seems like the shape of the body shouldnt either

 

[jumble jumble]

Pickups for mahogany Tele???

I don't know, I haven't tested it. I suspect mass is more important than shape. The only thing a body can really do is suck up some vibration from the string, right? Like, you'd get the longest sustain by stretching the string across a concert post rather than a tree trunk. Because the concrete is way harder to vibrate, so would take less energy from the string.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers but like I say - every single argument in support of wood making a difference is anecdotal and based on unreliable perception. That doesn't disprove it but it sure as hell doesn't prove it either.


Sent from one of my four iPad

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

If I record a bunch of clips, would anyone here like to take a Pepsi challenge and identify the woods used? Should be a piece of cake. Or if not, can you explain why not and how that doesn't contradict what you're saying about wood?

Everybody hears different which invalidates such a test. I might being hearing something your not, or you might hear something I'm not. My father is practically deaf at this point so he won't hear it at all. Or the recording may not even have captured the essential thing I hear direct from the cab between different guitars. Maybe that's just the result or the limitations of the recording and play back equipment, and the recording methodology?

Everyone's just saying "I trust my ears"

This anecdotal evidence is what really matters. It's the instrumented data that is irrelavent to tone as it is precieved. In many cases ears can be the more capable instrument of measure.

Furthermore I disagree that this:

what audiophiles say when they've just bought a wooden volume knob for their amp and are claiming it's "night and day".

Is equalivalent to this:

I've got an ash and an and Strat and they sound completely different",

 

[papersoul]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

wow this thread has gotten off topic! LOL. Since I love the Littl59 in my American Tele, I want to try the Custom/59 hybrid in my Tele with a 59 in the neck position.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

I suspect mass is more important than shape. The only thing a body can really do is suck up some vibration from the string, right? Like, you'd get the longest sustain by stretching the string across a concert post rather than a tree trunk. Because the concrete is way harder to vibrate, so would take less energy from the string.

Isn't this another way of saying that woods/materials can make a difference?

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

wow this thread has gotten off topic! LOL. Since I love the Littl59 in my American Tele, I want to try the Custom/59 hybrid in my Tele with a 59 in the neck position.

Well I have a mahogony-maple cap H/H Tele and A2 PAF types work fine in that. I'm a little afraid of A5 because it has an ebony fingerboard over a maple shaft. But it needs trembuckers anyway.

 

[NewWave]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

@Arius : Can you please tell me why an es335 sound different from a Les Paul? It has the same scale,hardware, they might have different pickups but overall they sound different to each other. An es has that hollow sound that jazz musicians favor and a les paul doesn't have.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Everybody hears different which invalidates such a test. I might being hearing something your not, or you might hear something I'm not. My father is practically deaf at this point so he won't hear it at all. Or the recording may not even have captured the essential thing I hear direct from the cab between different guitars. Maybe that's just the result or the limitations of the recording and play back equipment, and the recording methodology?

This anecdotal evidence is what really matters. It's the instrumented data that is irrelavent to tone as it is precieved. In many cases ears can be the more capable instrument of measure.

Actually, ears aren't a measure of anything: they can't output objective data, only subjective perception which is colored by WAY more factors than the actual sound waves alone.

And oh, the old "the test won't work" thing. How convenient. It's true, just don't ask me to demonstrate it because I can't.

Like I said, your arguments are exactly those of audiophiles with their expensive HDMI cables and cable supports.

Furthermore I disagree that this:

Is equalivalent to this:

Conceded. I was exaggerating a bit too much there.

Isn't this another way of saying that woods/materials can make a difference?

I'm not actually arguing that they don't. I'm saying the difference is impossible to detect using ears alone. I bet nobody here could tell what wood my Strat was made of if I posted a clip or even if they were blindfolded playing it through their amp of choice. Other factors have so much more effect as to drown out the effect of the body wood completely. Of course, if the wood is actually spongecake, you'd be able to tell. Ash vs alder though? I'm gonna need evidence. "Anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

@Arius : Can you please tell me why an es335 sound different from a Les Paul? It has the same scale,hardware, they might have different pickups but overall they sound different to each other. An es has that hollow sound that jazz musicians favor and a les paul doesn't have.

Strawman. Arius specifically said "solid body" in his original post.

 

[NewWave]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

@Arius : Can you please tell me why an es335 sound different from a Les Paul? It has the same scale,hardware, they might have different pickups but overall they sound different to each other. An es has that hollow sound that jazz musicians favor and a les paul doesn't have.

I'm not going to edit ^^^

Ok but can you still explain why they sound different I mean its just the pickups and electronics right? Do you think es335 are accumulating pixie dust that move in circular motion within their hollowbody?

I mean even two same wood species can sound different for example when you try guitars in a store they sound different to each other even though they are the same line which ofcourse means the same electrics and pickups. Okay.. you care about pickups and one guitar might have higher pickup height Oh yeah, you also put in the string "AGE" to the variable. Right, even if you wait for two weeks until the store restrung the guitar, then you try the guitar and they sound different to each other and notice that the pickup height of one guitar is higher so you lower them to make it similar or even exact and still notice that they sound different and blame the amp for not being a stable variable (tube are hotter then,etc.) you're a corksniffer yourself.

BUT, I do believe things like these are better left alone. I mean the player better waste time on other things. if there is two options one, the guitar plays well and looks good, but sound not so great to the last atom. And a guitar that sound godly to the last atom but hard to play and look dull. You better go with the 1st option,always.

And I might not be giving anymore input to this discussion

 

[Arius]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Tonewood is irrelevant.

Said no guitar builder ever. Ever read any of Bob Taylor's articles:?:

The Guild of American Luthiers disagrees.

One cannot blame most guitar builders for perpetuating such a myth, though. If woods truly make a difference, it is greater incentive for an individual to buy more guitars. If particularly fine grain performs better than cheap grain, it is more incentive to charge more for a very fine piece of mahogany that a discerning luthier has determined will "sing" the "sweetest." Why figured maple, on the other hand, is cherished for its flawed grain with AAAAA quilt/flame tops, those with the most flawed grain of all, carrying a heavy premium, is beyond me.

Even pickup manufacturers have something to gain. Don't like x pickup in y body? Why not move that pickup to another guitar and buy a new pickup for y body?

 

[Arius]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Arius, it's not about you being right or wrong. It's about you having an attitude, and your obvious trolling. While I think your underlying point is solid in some ways, it doesn't seem like making it is truly why you are here. IMO, you are overstating it zealously and condescendingly just to try to mess with people...all after just showing up. Nice introduction. You could be 100 percent right (though you definitely are not), and we'd still think you are being a jerk. No matter what kind of good or bad points you may have, at the very least, have the manners to start your own thread about it, instead of getting into a multi-page back and forth, spraying the Dreaded Diarrhea of Digression on the OP's thread..

You do not like me. That is fine. It is important to bring attention to the issue. While no regulars have spoken up about thinking of things in different ways since my arrival, I assure you there are far more lurkers on this forum than posters, and some have decided to research the matter themselves. Some of those readers have inevitably come around to my way of thinking, and more will in the future. That is all that matters to me.

I have had internet access since the early 1990s. I've witnessed people talk of tonewoods for many years, and to be honest, by the year 2013, I expected such talk would be laughed at. After all, the resources available to all of us are myriad. There's little excuse to still believe in such preternatural concepts as tonewood. However, I have noticed the opposite: tonewoods are spoken of more than ever. No forum I've lurked at throughout the years give as much credence to Tonewoodism as this one. It is the perfect venue in which to bring truth.

You can doubt my sincerity and reasons for being here if you like. Nothing is easier to do on the internet where most of us are (excluding social networking sites) never more than faceless collections of text. I will not water down my assertions with limp-wristed "maybes" for the sake of not coming off as a "jerk." Nor will I resort to name-calling as some of my assailants here have. I will continue to respectfully post in as objective a fashion as I can.

I suggest you look at the few threads I have posted in. I have spoken directly to the original posters and have told them not to worry about wood, for it makes no difference. Others have elected to go after me following that, and I have elected to defend myself. Can you truly place blame on me for speaking directly to the original posters in a respectful manner, only becoming involved in back-and-forths when attacked by others?

Well I have a mahogony-maple cap H/H Tele and A2 PAF types work fine in that. I'm a little afraid of A5 because it has an ebony fingerboard over a maple shaft. But it needs trembuckers anyway.

Ha! Thank you, friend. This thread was sorely in need of comic relief.

Strawman. Arius specifically said "solid body" in his original post.

Much appreciated.

I mean even two same wood species can sound different for example when you try guitars in a store they sound different to each other even though they are the same line which ofcourse means the same electrics and pickups. Okay.. you care about pickups and one guitar might have higher pickup height Oh yeah, you also put in the string "AGE" to the variable. Right, even if you wait for two weeks until the store restrung the guitar, then you try the guitar and they sound different to each other and notice that the pickup height of one guitar is higher so you lower them to make it similar or even exact and still notice that they sound different and blame the amp for not being a stable variable (tube are hotter then,etc.) you're a corksniffer yourself.

Please refer to the second quote of my signature regarding anecdotal evidence. With all the variables that differ between two guitars, I cannot imagine why you would immediately identify the wood as the decisive determinant.

And I might not be giving anymore input to this discussion

That's okay as you've brought very little to it thus far.

 

[925SS]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

P94-style pickups of some sort.

^+1
A mahogany slab loves P90s
Might want to check out the Phat cats

 

[pzaxtl]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

You know, sometimes, I get worked up about the stupidest things, fire off some kind of testy response, and feel like an a$$ a couple days later after I've thought about it...

The OP asked a simple question; it has a simple answer: whatever sounds good to you! Whether it's wood or wire or the tilt of the earth's axis, is by and large irrelevant to a thoroughly subjective choice.

I appreciate the desire of one poster to educate. I like knowledge -- a lot! There's plenty I don't know, and there's plenty I do -- the give and take is a great thing. However, it's a little difficult to accept input -- even if it's completely correct -- when the attitude conveyed in giving it is elitist.

This is a great forum! I have many friends here. Sure, from time to time, this one and that one may have a little squabble. But, eventually, we work it out and things are good again. In the end, intellectual superiority doesn't impress any of us. Decency does!

 

[Axl H]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Arius,

Follow up with some back up of your statements. Its easy to sound knowledgeable, and
Undercut others knowledge, but come on.
Come on with some proper and unbiased arguing.
Knowledge is cool. I think many are interested in a good discussion about this topic.

Your way of arguing just seems off putting. Coming to a new place and pointing fingers at regulars is bad taste.
Of course, I take it you are quite firm in your ways, and refuse to see any other viewpoints.
Ur viewpoint is controversial - that doesent mean it is wrong.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

wow this thread has gotten off topic! LOL.

You don't say.

 

[TheLivingDead]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Arius,

Follow up with some back up of your statements. Its easy to sound knowledgeable, and
Undercut others knowledge, but come on.
Come on with some proper and unbiased arguing.
Knowledge is cool. I think many are interested in a good discussion about this topic.

Your way of arguing just seems off putting. Coming to a new place and pointing fingers at regulars is bad taste.
Of course, I take it you are quite firm in your ways, and refuse to see any other viewpoints.
Ur viewpoint is controversial - that doesent mean it is wrong.

 

[eggman]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

Howdy,

I'm a disciple of Keith Richards and Buck Owens, of all things. I've a pair of DiMarzio Twang Kings in my Mahogany Tele. And they're fantastic. Great bang-fer-the-buck P/U. Twang on!

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Pickups for mahogany Tele???

"He be messin wit pigmeat here, mfr be rejecen the cologna, directly into the duodinum of the unsuspectin bignum, now he gwana see if he immune to it by eatin a dab hissef"

"We should probably feel sorry for him. You have to admit, those are some of the least expensive cuts of pork..."