Possibility of 8 string with high A and Floyd Rose bridge

[Inflames626]

Hi all,
So I'm tempted by the plethora of cheaper 8 strings that have come onto the market lately--reminiscent of when 7 strings became affordable in the 00s.

The problem is I really hate a low F# string. I don't like anything below drop A (A1 on guitar or A0 on bass). It gets muddied up with the bass and kick and just...djent is not for me, especially from a mixing standpoint.

I think 8 strings impress as a solo instrument in jazz with drone notes, but in a metal band setting, say Obscura, 7 string guitars with a 7 string bass is much more effective. The parts can be more independent from a counterpoint perspective, weaving in and out of each other, and the high strings on a 6-7 string bass just sound nicer than the low F# on an 8 string guitar to my ear.

I do like the thought of an 8 string as an A E A D G B E A guitar with a high A string, probably 8 gauge. It would most likely have to be fan fret--maybe 26.5" to 23.5" or so. It would be quite a huge difference. That said, it's more important that the high A string be shorter to facilitate bending. I'm fine with a 25.5" low A string if absolutely necessary.

I know the high A string has been done. Dean had a brief Rusty Cooley model with a high A string here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGpkYhgCUnI

Floyd Rose 8 strings are here: https://www.floydrose.com/products/frt8?variant=29879554898

The thing is I'm not sure how you'd slant a Floyd in such a way to allow the string lengths to be staggered in such an extreme way as you do on a fixed bridge. My guess is you would need the base plate to be huge to allow the saddles for the upper strings to have a lot of forward movement and the low strings to have a lot of backward movement.

Some of us want 8 strings in the upper register for more melodic content, not in the lower register competing with the kick and bass. The thing is getting that high A to be bendable/usable with licks and able to take a full minor 3rd pull up on the whammy bar without breaking.

Hopefully one day we can get a guitar to have the same range as a concert grand piano without resorting to effects like a Digitech Whammy pedal or something in production like pitch shifting.

My hope is we can somehow develop the guitar into an 8-10 octave instrument, similar to an organ, but have it be ergnomically useful for the left hand and not be just for using drone notes (which a bass guitar can do).

I'll also be reaching out to Floyd Rose directly for input on this and will get back with everyone.

Thanks.

 

[Top-L]

Ok, but you will have to relearn all your chord shapes and you won't be able to strum normal chords because the high A string will ring.

And the top part of the A string will be very high pitched and shrill.

And what about the string itself? It will have to be very very skinny and strung at a high tension.

 

[Inflames626]

Ok, but you will have to relearn all your chord shapes and you won't be able to strum normal chords because the high A string will ring.

And the top part of the A string will be very high pitched and shrill.

And what about the string itself? It will have to be very very skinny and strung at a high tension.

Top-L , I see it as you'll be playing the same chords but just different inversions/voicings.

Let's take an A E A D G B E A 8 string as an example. Let's ignore the low A since it's drop tuned and drop tunings always mess with barre chords.

So you make a regular A major barre chord at 5th fret starting on the 6th string. You can leave the 1st string open and let that A ring. Likewise you could barre it at 5th fret for a D note in a A major chord which would add a perfect 4th/11th, or you could try and get an E out of 1st string 7th fret on the high A for another perfect 5th, but the 5th is usually dropped.

The scale length would have to be much shorter, 23.5" or less. Very thin--8 gauge or less. It would have to survive a pull up from A to possibly C.

As far as it sounding shrill and thin, not once you get used to it. In the 80s low B strings sounded muddy and out of tune. Now no one thinks twice about a 5 string bass.

Pick placement will help on the barre chords. Just avoid the high A string if you don't want it.

As far as arpeggios and scale runs, Rusty talks in the video about how a high A string actually makes things easier to play.

I like the thought of an octave scale run on each pair of strings using 4 note per string patterns. So you could get 4 octaves out of a span from 5th fret to 10th fret on 8 strings.

This would be even easier in metal since we use minor more than major, avoiding the annoying major third movement for a minor third to perfect fourth movement and perfect fifth to minor 6th.

 

[Mincer]

It can be done, but the issue is that the tension will be really high on that high A string. You will break a lot of strings, or have to source some supplier of more robust (and expensive) strings. Robert Fripp uses a tuning of CGDAEG. He had tried to experiment with a high A (with very thin stings), but they kept breaking.

 

[Inflames626]

It takes a little bit figuring out the notes but it's not difficult if you know the note names/locations on the neck and the music theory used to construct chords/scales.

Then you aren't just using shapes for the sake of using a shape.

This becomes vital in jazz where you have to instantly know what a chord turns into when you change the root note for its inversion or maybe not even an inversion but a reharmonization of a chord.

 

[El Dunco]

Rondo music sell floyded 8 strings. You would need more springs than I would find optimally comfortable but 7 with an extra high is a unique way to do it.

 

[Top-L]

This would be even easier in metal since we use minor more than major, avoiding the annoying major third movement for a minor third to perfect fourth movement and perfect fifth to minor 6th.

Well, good luck with all this.

Advances and changes in technology have created new sounds and new music.

I don't see a practical advantage to it. If you need higher register, they make 27+ fret guitars. Those have been out for a while and it hasn't made an impact afaik. I'm not aware of new styles or forms of expression that have been created with them, but it could allow a player to use certain arpeggio forms higher on the neck without running out of space. There could be other things to explore, but I do think it would require many new chord shapes.

 

[Inflames626]

Rondo music sell floyded 8 strings. You would need more springs than I would find optimally comfortable but 7 with an extra high is a unique way to do it.

El Dunco , I opt for the 3 springs in an arrow shape. E standard to D standard gets 10s, Db-C gets 11s, B-A gets 12s. So I play a somewhat light gauge for each tuning I'm in.

That said my Kramer Assault Plus 220 is a 25.5" Les Paul copy. It has 4 springs in parallel on an OFR with 10s in standard tuning. I thought the bar movement would feel very heavy and slow but it's actually pretty comfortable and tuning stability is somewhat improved.

Now that you mention it, I might try four springs on any Floyded 24.75" guitars I have to make up for the shorter scale length causing tuning issues. Every now and then you will see LTD Eclipses and even rarer EXes with Floyd Roses. Epiphone also put out a new Alex Lifeson model with a Floyd Rose based on his Les Paul Axcess.

 

[Inflames626]

Well, good luck with all this.

Advances and changes in technology have created new sounds and new music.

I don't see a practical advantage to it. If you need higher register, they make 27+ fret guitars. Those have been out for a while and it hasn't made an impact afaik. I'm not aware of new styles or forms of expression that have been created with them, but it could allow a player to use certain arpeggio forms higher on the neck without running out of space. There could be other things to explore, but I do think it would require many new chord shapes.

I hate to be so blunt about it, but I think the biggest reason for this is guitar players, especially in rock, prefer memorizing shapes without knowing WHY the shape is the way it is and what each note in that shape does.

It's simply harder to use guitars with more frets. They're smaller toward the top and, if I'm correct, the scale length is slightly longer, creating more tension and making the guitar harder to play. Michael Angelo Batio's guitars from the 80s come to mind, which I think had 27 frets or so. Ibanez Xiphoses as well.

More strings will always win out over more frets because you can drone open notes or go up a string. This is why string skipping is always more efficient than going up and down the neck. Less hand movement. That said, there is a place for legato playing to get you out of boxes.

So, because it's just harder using guitars with more frets, guitar players tend to shy away from it. This depresses demand for modified instruments. They won't make these exotic boundary pushing instruments if there's no demand for them because they require a more skilled player.

Meanwhile a low F# string is popular because it's easy to use. In djent it's about the right hand more than the left.

Putting more strings on the top end will make a huge difference once people start using them. Just consider a Mozart era piano vs. a modern 88 key piano. No one used those extra notes before, but once they started consistently making pianos with wider ranges, Beethoven took full advantage.

 

[Seashore]

If you manage to find or build a guitar with a 23.5" scale on the high end, a .008 would be 15.76 lbs at high A according to Kalium's tension calculator. That's a nice doable tension for lead stuff. It's probably too tight on higher scales, maybe a 24.75 could work.

What about a custom scale 8 string with a fixed bridge and a digital trem bar? Something like a Virtual Jeff?

 

[Inflames626]

If you manage to find or build a guitar with a 23.5" scale on the high end, a .008 would be 15.76 lbs at high A according to Kalium's tension calculator. That's a nice doable tension for lead stuff. It's probably too tight on higher scales, maybe a 24.75 could work.

What about a custom scale 8 string with a fixed bridge and a digital trem bar? Something like a Virtual Jeff?

Seashore , didn't know this existed, but I was concerned if I went with anything more than a Digitech Whammy it would end up being like one of those 80s synth guitars and either work badly or be unusable. A Kaos Pad comes to mind with such devices.

I could also live with a 24.75" low A if it made it possible to shorten the high A string and make the slant less extreme. LTD makes some 7 string Eclipses that are actually shorter than usuall--25" I think--and they seem to work well enough if thick enough strings are used.

In my experience anything above 12 begins to require a larger diameter capstan hole.

As far as the Floyd requirement, I just dislike guitars without Floyds--period. To me they are like synthesizers without pitch wheels--literally half a guitar. That and I prefer the Randy Rhoads style of rhythm playing that alternates between what someone might do on a Les Paul and flashy Van Halen style fills.

I do have fixed bridge guitars, but they are for tracking rhythms when staying in tune is essential and for quickly changing tuning during songwriting. Once an appropriate tuning has been found, if it is used often enough, it usually finds its way to a Floyded guitar that stays in that tuning. All the standard perfect fourths/major third tunings are in my collection in half steps from E standard down to A standard. I have a few 7 strings that begin in B and go down to A.

 

[Seashore]

I haven't gotten to try a Virtual Jeff ($$$) but if the sound and action are good they would solve a few problems for me. I have a Floyd on a 26.5" 7-string which at one point had a .0085 high E - too loose for me, coming in around 12lbs of tension, I just had a few of them to use - and even that was prone to breaking if I wasn't careful.

I remembered reading about these Sophia bridges a little while ago, no idea if they're as great as they claim and I don't see an 8-string on the site, but maybe they're worth getting in touch with? Floating 7-string trem for multi-scale:

https://sophiatremolos.com/products/...lqiINI2lmDqNac

 

[Top-L]

As far as the Floyd requirement, I just dislike guitars without Floyds--period. To me they are like synthesizers without pitch wheels--literally half a guitar. That and I prefer the Randy Rhoads style of rhythm playing that alternates between what someone might do on a Les Paul and flashy Van Halen style fills.

On that I agree with you.

I'm trying to break away from my Floyd preference, but I have a difficult time pulling the trigger on a guitar I know won't stay in tune as well.

That said, other bridges might be a better fit on extended range experiemental guitars where you are switching between tuning.

 

[Inflames626]

I forgot to mention this as well.

https://bcrich.com/product/shredzilla-8-prophecy-archtop-with-floyd-rose/

 

[El Dunco]

El Dunco , I opt for the 3 springs in an arrow shape. E standard to D standard gets 10s, Db-C gets 11s, B-A gets 12s. So I play a somewhat light gauge for each tuning I'm in.

That said my Kramer Assault Plus 220 is a 25.5" Les Paul copy. It has 4 springs in parallel on an OFR with 10s in standard tuning. I thought the bar movement would feel very heavy and slow but it's actually pretty comfortable and tuning stability is somewhat improved.

Now that you mention it, I might try four springs on any Floyded 24.75" guitars I have to make up for the shorter scale length causing tuning issues. Every now and then you will see LTD Eclipses and even rarer EXes with Floyd Roses. Epiphone also put out a new Alex Lifeson model with a Floyd Rose based on his Les Paul Axcess.

Yeah, putting two pairs of springs in my ofr 7 made it closer to the fluid feel if my 6 string shredder with 2 springs. It was the third spring in the middle jacking the feel.

How about this with a 7 string set from bottom to second to last, then a super light gauge where the high E would go. Maybe hit up their custom shop for essentially the same guitar but with fanned frets so the scale length is shorter at the higher end.

 

[El Dunco]

Sorry, this

https://www.rondomusic.com/inte828ebemgbkflmfloyd.html

 

[Inflames626]

Sorry, this

https://www.rondomusic.com/inte828ebemgbkflmfloyd.html

El Dunco , yeah that's fairly close to the BC Rich I linked to at less than half the price. Nice guitar.

The thing is if the guitar can't even handle a high A 8 gauge string being bent, there's no way it can handle a full on bar pull up that might bring the high A pitch from A to C or C#.

That's why I was thinking the OFR would need a big plate so the high strings can be moved really close and the low strings moved way back--maybe with 3 or even 4 screw holes instead of the usual two for each saddle.

Yeah your idea is what we've been talking about here--pretty much a 7 string with an additional high string. I also should have maybe explained it to Top-L that I see an A E A D G B E A guitar as more or less a standard guitar with an A on both top and bottom, so it wouldn't be too hard to learn.

Drop tuned guitars mess with your barre chords and arpeggios by shifting them two frets out of position, so you could just ignore it. The high A could be used sometimes and especially on scale runs where you have an octave for each pair of strings. Monstrous runs would be pretty easy.

The thing with putting just a few extra frets or even a whole octave up top is how much longer you'd need to make the guitar and the frets would be tiny in the upper registers. Plus you wouldn't have the benefit of pedaling an open A or going down/across strings. 7th fret on the 1st high A string would be the same as open E on the 2nd string, 19th would be the same as 2nd string at 24th fret. So you'd get an extra 4th or so out of it. Measuring from the low A though the distance would be huge.

That said, the BC Rich is 27". This would be hard enough on the standard tuned inner strings. The Agile is a massive 28.625". I wouldn't even want to try to bend that. Then again you'd probably be doing more sweeping/tapping licks on a guitar like this than blues box pentatonics.

Doing a high A with a Floyd has so many things going against it, but I so want it to happen. I think the base plate will either need to be enlarged to shorten that high string or the entire base plate will need to be tilted to shorten the high A scale length and lengthen the low A. It will take some real thinking--and also demand--which I'm trying to create here by talking about it.

It will most likely have to be fanned to work.

The highest tuning you could probably do with this would be G C F Bb Eb G C F. Even then pulling the bar up would probably snap the 1st F string. And to my ear playing G sounds almost as bad as F#. I heard a Whitechapel riff in G and it sounded like a distorted bucket of turds.

I guess for now Dime's stepping on a Whammy is as close as we can get to what I'm hearing, but I wish we could do it on the actual instrument and not through effects.

 

[Mincer]

I don't think it will work, at least not with current guitar designs. Modern strings can't withstand it, and it most certainly wouldn't intonate.

You could also get a Variax, and electronically 'tune' it any way you want to see if your idea can ergonomically work for chords and stuff.

 

[El Dunco]

There’s got to be a multi scale (fanned) guitar that has a trem or that you can at least install an 8 string trem in. It’s a unique idea, hasn’t really been done in a way many people are aware of and I think the trial and error of getting there will be worth it when it happens, then you’ll have a totally unique setup.

Maybe there’s an even thinner gauge of string out there like for a banjo or something.

Don’t give up.

How about inventing a hybrid bridge that uses a 6 to 7 string floating bridge for the highest strings and the lowest is on its own, independent fixed saddle? Didn’t EVH do something like cut a vibrola trem in half?

 

[Inflames626]

There’s got to be a multi scale (fanned) guitar that has a trem or that you can at least install an 8 string trem in. It’s a unique idea, hasn’t really been done in a way many people are aware of and I think the trial and error of getting there will be worth it when it happens, then you’ll have a totally unique setup.

Maybe there’s an even thinner gauge of string out there like for a banjo or something.

Don’t give up.

How about inventing a hybrid bridge that uses a 6 to 7 string floating bridge for the highest strings and the lowest is on its own, independent fixed saddle? Didn’t EVH do something like cut a vibrola trem in half?

El Dunco , I appreciate the support and interest, as that's what I'm trying to build here. I may try a traditional 8 with a Floyd in Ab tuning so the 1st string could be bent from Gb up to A if the bar is pulled up and you get a minor third out of the bend. Most players also can finger bend 2 steps at most. I've seen most strings survive G and a few survive Ab/and A, so maybe going down a minor third could make it workable.

By then I'd have a traditional 7 with an extra high string detuned a half step, essentially.

I didn't know EVH did that. I thought perhaps you could do a traditional 7 string Floyd on the bottom 7 strings and leave the high A alone with a shorter, string thru scale length.

Still not crazy about the tone/timbre below A1. On the bright side, Ibanez is now mass producing their 7 string bass that I think they only did before as a one off for Linus from Obscura. Prior to that I had seen some Korean brands on EBay try crazy stuff like that (Galveston comes to mind), but perhaps more interesting textures are to be found higher up on bass instead of on guitar. As a guitarist I love noodling on 6 string bass.

As Dean proved with its Rusty Cooley model, at the very least an 8 with a high A can be tried if it is fixed bridge and the scale length is short enough. This might be easier on some 8 string Eclipses which, keeping with Gibson convention, are slightly shorter than most 8 string Strat guitars at the same scale length. I also think LPs look better as an 8 than a humbucking Strat. LPs just look like a beefy hunk of mahogany that should handle 8 strings.

Much appreciation to Mincer also for offering insights as only a knowledgeable admin can.

I will post again when I hear back from Floyd Rose and possibly some string companies about their ideas. I'd like to get people talking about it.

The thing with djent is once somebody starts doing it thanks to YouTube in a matter of weeks everyone else is doing it and it loses originality.

Meshuggah got popular with Bleed back in 2008. It's time to move on from low F#. It never impressed me much and if you watch Meshuggah play they rarely ride that low F# string in fast 16ths like you would in thrash metal because it's too low. Periphery, Animals as Leaders, and Polyphia bore me as impressive as their skills are. Meanwhile Leprous interests me because they can create interesting prog textures without losing heaviness, unlike, say, Opeth in recent years.

Meanwhile, on the flip side of a low F# to compensate you have to EQ the kicks to be so clicky they become distracting.

Lastly, everybody should look at this video of guitarists trying to use 10 strings. The struggle not only musically but ergonomically is real. I have also seen many new plugins emulating extended string instruments like this--probably to get around the ergonomics/luthiery problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0TFMmbwZfU

My guess is in the future (20-30 years from now) just about all recorded music will be programmed and not performed--mainly as an extension of the popularity of bedroom recording meeting EDM meeting instantaneous digital distribution.

Perhaps in 100 years we will look at guitar in the same way as we do clavichord, harpsichord, fortepiano, koto, and lute now--historical instruments that are no longer played by most people but are well understood for their contributions to music history and appreciated for what they were at the time.

For us guitarists who like recording in rooms live and gigging with amps, this outcome is rather depressing, but I think it will come to pass.