Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

[KLINKDETROIT]

I am seeking the input of an experienced engineer with regard to cutting rhythm guitar tracks for a heavy alternative rock record.



We know that it always sounds best to cut 2 identical guitar tracks and pan hard left and right. More often than not this is typical practice for such an application resulting in the best stereo spread and big sound. The guitar player on this project is a very seasoned and "artistic" player. Unfortunately the flip side is that it has been very difficult for him to play 2 identical tracks with the precision timing it takes to really justify such an application.



That said, we also know that there have been hard rock projects that sound very good, have the desired bigness and stereo spread we hope to achieve-However we also know that this has been achieved in 1 performance.



We have attempted multiple mics and rigs simultaneously in order to differentiate left and right. We have also tried cutting 1 track and bussing to stereo aux bus-then panning. In both of these applications, it still just didn't sound near as cool as 2 independent performances.



Hoping that someone out there can provide us the necessary feedback that will allow us to be successful in overcoming such challenges.



We have 4 stellar rigs, 10+ tip top Les Pauls with boutique pickups, and every possible pro studio mic, mic pre and y/splitter box imaginable.



Any assistance would be very much appreciated.



Thank You.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

The million dollar question!




It's a deep deep rabbit hole.



I'm WAY too swamped to begin addressing now but I will return!

Or 'ya can just start reading the following thousand pages of ramblings done by this dribbling idiot of an AE when some poor soul asked the SAME question in an audio production forum a long long time ago.

This dude...he speaks truth.

Read & listen as he pontificates for HOURS about things that are heard & processed in the brain within 30 seconds.

Those of ya'll on the East Coast will probably recognize the humor...those who aren't as ummm..."seasoned" might want to cover their virgin eyes and take a 'funny' pill.

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Peace,

 

[KLINKDETROIT]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Thanks Moose

 

[vinterland]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Good luck reading that novel. I got through about 4 pages before calling it quits for the day. Some funny stuff in there.

 

[Nightrunner]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

I'm going to read the "novel" myself, but have you tried creating a pseudo-stereo image from the mono guitar track?

The most basic way to approach that is to copy the mono track to another empty track, delay it by a small number of milliseconds and then do your panning. The time delay causes enough separation to spread the parts further left & right... You may need to increase the gain on whichever track you delay in order to make it "sound" as loud as the on-time track. Too much delay & the tracks will echo or sound sloppy.. too little & the spread collapses. Remember to test the mix in mono with this technique too... nothing worse than a disappearing guitar track! :smack:

I've had varying success with this technique, depending on how often I hit a palm-muted A5... when that happens (or any particularly resonant frequency for that matter), the spread tends to collapse to the middle which can sound a bit strange. This technique works GREAT for "doubling" leads though.

I don't know what you're recording to, but if it's ProTools or some other DAW, there are some great "doubler" plugins that may be able to pull off what you're looking for.

You could also try some creative stereo miking (i.e. M-S) techniques that give you more control over "discrete" center & L/R images...


Some things to try...

--Nightrunner

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

You could try the reamping technique discussed here earlier. Do a search for it. Rather than making him do two tracks you could just use the reamping method and feed it to two separate amps panned left and right. It would give the illusion of two perfect tracks and possibly different guitars and guitarists.

 

[Nightrunner]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

You could try the reamping technique discussed here earlier. Do a search for it. Rather than making him do two tracks you could just use the reamping method and feed it to two separate amps panned left and right. It would give the illusion of two perfect tracks and possibly different guitars and guitarists.

Yeah, and if you combine that technique with the delay technique perhaps the collapse would be less likely to occur!

--Nightrunner

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

I just had weird idea! You know how old van halen had the dry guitar panned left and the bright echo panned right? What if you had a double recto left and a delayed plexi right? Use each amp for their strengths.

 

[Truant]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Thanks Moose for that link.

I've learned tons and I'm just getting started!

 

[KLINKDETROIT]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Cool stuff. Thanks

 

[Jeff Dunne]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Haven't started reading it, but...

If he can't cut two identical takes, he's not a very solid player, IMO. Granted, it does take some practice to become tight like that, I regularly cut 4 identical tracks.

That said, don't go about putting two of the same performances, even if they're reamped through different amps, on stereo sides - it'll cancel out into a mono signal in the center.

My advice is to get a new player to cut the rhythm tracks and have him do the leads and fills, or have him sit down and get his **** together.

 

[KLINKDETROIT]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

The time is more of a factor than his ability. He is a great player but our time is limited and we know it will take a long time to duplicate tracks and we have some interest in our stuff. Thanks guys for the help.

 

[Fretology]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

if you have the track recorded why not clone it in a DAW and adjust the duplicates to your liking?

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

If he can't cut two identical takes, he's not a very solid player, IMO. Granted, it does take some practice to become tight like that, I regularly cut 4 identical tracks.

imo you should take your time and do it right. I can't tell you how many times I rushed to get something done and screwed up the release or project etc.

And seriously if he is a good player he should be able to bang out two rhythm parts in a few takes each. If he can't then he is probably not set with his part and he needs to stick to "A" part and go with it, or he needs to practice before walking in the studio.

 

[J Moose]

Hola!

While I kinda could/should be workin'...I'd rather play hookey & catch up on this thread!

We know that it always sounds best to cut 2 identical guitar tracks and pan hard left and right. More often than not this is typical practice for such an application resulting in the best stereo spread and big sound. The guitar player on this project is a very seasoned and "artistic" player. Unfortunately the flip side is that it has been very difficult for him to play 2 identical tracks with the precision timing it takes to really justify such an application.

Truth pretty much all 'round...

And yah...if the player isn't up to 'par then ya'll are gonna have a bad time unless you can change your expectations & perceptions for the project when delt with whatever hand your dealt.

In other words...

'Ya gotta either embrace the "artistic" tendencies for what they are & make that part of the rekkid'...or 'ya can decide to work against it & maybe replace him.

Say he "wasn't playing his best...but was a large part of the record" sorta thing.

It's called a 'non-disclosure agreement' which pretty much EVERY session player signs in that kinda situation.

Happens ALL the time.



I try to embrace the "artistic" aspect of the playing...call it a "performance"...I guess in the same way that Perry Fellel...'ya know...early Janes Addiction, that someone like him could be called a 'vocal stylist' rather then a 'singer' and get away with it.

Whatever.

Bottom line...you either gotta embrace all it's 'diffencies' or make something "cool" out of it with presentation or smoke & mirrors...aka effects...or just replace the player with someone who IS up to the task of not-suckin' wind and might've actually stayed home from the party & practiced once-in-a-while! LOL

I went through this a few months ago when...hmmmuuu...how to make this loooooooooooong story short...

About six months ago I got a call from a band to 'rescue' their record...signed to a 'big' indie-label with a solid budget & a "name" producer on the record. But NOBODY'S liking the "name" producer & what's happening there. After they blew a wad of cash w/ "name" they got the label's A&R mook to pull the record from the "name" and hand it over to me for the duration & whatevers left of the once quite ample budget...

Not fukkin' much! LOL

I made their first 'indie' EP gained the majors interest. Anyway...one of the label directed "make us mooks" happy tasks on the to-do list was to replace the rhythm guitars with something that didn't sound like the player had a broken hand when tape was rolled.

I had to learn & record 80% of the guitars for 15 songs in about seven days...AND do it well enough to fool everyone INCLUDING the kucklehead who played that poo in the first place!!!



Ok.

So that's option #1.

Probably & most likely the best call for the sake of the record...but probably the hardest one to pull off politically within the context & powers of the group.

That said, we also know that there have been hard rock projects that sound very good, have the desired bigness and stereo spread we hope to achieve-However we also know that this has been achieved in 1 performance.

Yup. It can totally be done!

 

[J Moose]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

We have attempted multiple mics and rigs simultaneously in order to differentiate left and right. We have also tried cutting 1 track and bussing to stereo aux bus-then panning. In both of these applications, it still just didn't sound near as cool as 2 independent performances.

Hoping that someone out there can provide us the necessary feedback that will allow us to be successful in overcoming such challenges.

We have 4 stellar rigs, 10+ tip top Les Pauls with boutique pickups, and every possible pro studio mic, mic pre and y/splitter box imaginable.

Any assistance would be very much appreciated.

Thank You.

That's why ya'll should hire 'a producer' to do this kinda thing! LOL We're the deciding vote between band members & guage the "fukkin'....good 'nuff vs. that's gotta be executed better" quotient of a recording.

Lots of good advice here...all around.

It DOES all start & kinda end with 'the player'.

It's only gonna be as good as the gee'tar slinger is good enough to allow it to be.

If his playing is tight enough within it's self to lock with the bass & drums then you can add smoke & mirrors to make it sound bigger & BADDER then it EVER was.

That's kinda what "rock" recording is all about anyway...


But if the playing best resembles a demoltion derby that's being run by demented trolls then yer' just ****ed.

Assuming his playings "good enough" for a single pass to work within context then I'd probably try the following;

I dig the "less is always more" philosophy but sometimes more is MORE 'ya know?

Start with one mic...one amp. I assume we all know to sweep the mic around while trying to capture the amps tone right?

Ok.

One mic. Put that up...see what it sounds like. If I'm going with two mics it's almost always either for L/R image or more 'depth' in tone. Sometimes I'll the aligned capsule thing with & a 57 & 421...or maybe put something around the back or side of the amp to increase cabinet "thump" and resonance...sum any of those to one track.

Other times I'll go with two different mics like a dynamic & a condensor or a ribbon and once I get the first mic 'dialed' in I'll sweep the second one around until I get a good stereo image from the pair...maybe move the first mic after I get #2 placed...

I'm always checking the polarity (phase) of each mic against each other & listening for anything 'wonky' that might best resemble a Phase 90 or a wah stuck in mid-sweep!

That's ugly. Having things that collapse, disappear & otherwise do the Humpty Dumpty falls apart bit in mono really sucks too. MTV & most FM radio broadcasts stereo but something like 75% of receiving outlets STILL get mono signals or collapase to mono while in route to the radio in Johnny's bitchin' Camaro or some kids TV in Omaha.

So start with one mic...one track.

I usually 'stereo split' mono guitar tracks with some kinda 'old school' delay...I like old digital delays with knobs on 'em...MXR's...tape delays...anything that's gonna lop off some HF or change the tone a bit is kool.

Working in stereo I'll pan the 'main' guitar to one side & the delay return to the other & bring 'em up to equal volumes. At that point the 'main' guitar is the "master."

Go to mono & I'll bring the delay time in to anywhere from 10 to maybe 80ms with zero repeats and see what's going on. Somewhere in that range is gonna be your balance of 'stereo spread vs. mono comb filtering & ugliness' and control over the 'slop' factor.

Add too much with TOO long of a time & it'll be like a Jerry Lee Lewis record! That's a whole other kind of rock & roll! LOL

 

[J Moose]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

(MAN....I just kept ramblin' on & on and had to split this between three posts!!! Kept hitting the word limit...)




If there's a speed or depth control on the delay I'll always experiment with adding a slight bit of that, just enough to give some varience to the attack & envelope of the performance.

Anyway...that's one sorta trick.

Sometimes I'll use a pitch-shifter that's set to some kinda stereo-detuing...down maybe, -6 cents or -10...sometimes +3/-3 with a spread.

Tough call...can't recommend anything specific without hearing anything specific. Go twist some knobs around freaky!

Copying tracks around & doing the "DAW offset" thing NEVER works.

It ALWAYS sounds "fake" & never really works in mono because of the massive comb filter.

Using two amps can work but 'ya gotta put 'em both down at once OR if you do the reamp from the DAW bit...account for the latency of the round-trip out of & back into the DAW.

Either way to get the best spread & seperation the amps need to be set in positions where they can't "hear" each other. If they can hear each other then the maximum width of stereo spread is compromised...

Sometimes going with a miked amp & some kinda direct device like a J-Station or JMP-1...maybe a RAT pedal through a cool DI & some kinda 'money' sounding preamp is the ticket. Depends on the band & the record.

POD's & doing DI "dirt" guitar just sucks. Real amps move real air. I've used those little battery powered Marshalls & Fenders in shoeboxes that were covered with towels MANY times.

If the playing & arrangements of the songs leave enough space, you cna try hanging a room mic on the guitar amp...like 10-15' feet away and smushed though some sort of moderate to heavy compression can be a beautiful thing. I do that kind of thing on solos & ear candy bits a lot...ebow parts!!! LOL

Usually some or all of these in whatever combinations end up working.

I'll try almost anything once but it's really important to make it sound like something from the start.

Get a cool tone happening & commit commit commit!!!

Don't put everything off until later, it can't all be 'fixed in the mix.' Nor can you just record & record & record without focus & direction on what your doing.

It's also REALLY difficult to play, produce, engineer, make popcorn & mix a proper vodka cranberry all at the same time.

At least one of those is going to suffer for something else & guarenteed...your focus isn't going to allow for a steller day at the office with any one of those tasks.

At some point you gotta train the drummer or somebody to take over some of the nuts & bolts of the project. If I'm playing anything "real" then I've got someone else engineering for me...and sure...I'll move mics around, adjust whatever EQ's & the like...but the punching & any heavy lifting is done by someone else so I can concentrate on the playing.

Peace,

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

The million dollar question!




It's a deep deep rabbit hole.



I'm WAY too swamped to begin addressing now but I will return!

Or 'ya can just start reading the following thousand pages of ramblings done by this dribbling idiot of an AE when some poor soul asked the SAME question in an audio production forum a long long time ago.

This dude...he speaks truth.

Read & listen as he pontificates for HOURS about things that are heard & processed in the brain within 30 seconds.

Those of ya'll on the East Coast will probably recognize the humor...those who aren't as ummm..."seasoned" might want to cover their virgin eyes and take a 'funny' pill.

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Peace,

That was awesome! :fing2: I died laughing at that :laugh2:

 

[SCOTT502]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

That was awesome! :fing2: I died laughing at that :laugh2:

Yea, that was really funny stuff...thanks! I learned a lot from it as well, also from your posts J moose! Thanks!

 

[KLINKDETROIT]

Re: Professional Studio Engineers- Need Advice for guitars

Thanks moose. Very good stuff