Question about Mesa Rectifier series
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Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
I've read in several places that the Dual Rectifier series is a copy of the Soldano SLO 100, including on the Boogie Board. Looking at the schematics for both, I'm inclined to agree, at least as far as the preamp goes. The preamps in both the SLO 100 and Recto have the same number and type of gain stages, with the same component values at each stage. The power amp differs a bit between both amps. There are some different component values in the phase inverter and on the Power tubes as well. I don't know how much that will affect the amp's sound, but one thing that differes between the two amps that will effect the sound is the negative feedback loop in the power amp. The Recto can switch off it's negative feedback entirely (this is done in modern mode, IIRC), while the SLO doesn't look like it can. The Recto also has some features which the SLO 100 does not, the one most readily coming to mind is the ability to switch between solid state and vacuum tube rectification in the power amp, which the SLO 100, IIRC, cannot. The differing types of rectification in the power supply of the Recto will affect the sound and feel of the amp.
IMO, from having demoed both Marshalls and Rectos in the store, the Recto and Marshall sound nothing alike. Marshalls have a tight bottom end, plenty of crunch in the highs and upper mids. The bottom end on the Recto can get huge, so much so that it can turn into sludge if you want, and can get fizzier or buzzier in the highs than a Marshall will. If you want a Marshall-like sound with plenty of gain on tap, you should check out the Mesa Stiletto, not the Recto.
I've read in several places that the Dual Rectifier series is a copy of the Soldano SLO 100, including on the Boogie Board. Looking at the schematics for both, I'm inclined to agree, at least as far as the preamp goes. The preamps in both the SLO 100 and Recto have the same number and type of gain stages, with the same component values at each stage. The power amp differs a bit between both amps. There are some different component values in the phase inverter and on the Power tubes as well. I don't know how much that will affect the amp's sound, but one thing that differes between the two amps that will effect the sound is the negative feedback loop in the power amp. The Recto can switch off it's negative feedback entirely (this is done in modern mode, IIRC), while the SLO doesn't look like it can. The Recto also has some features which the SLO 100 does not, the one most readily coming to mind is the ability to switch between solid state and vacuum tube rectification in the power amp, which the SLO 100, IIRC, cannot. The differing types of rectification in the power supply of the Recto will affect the sound and feel of the amp.
IMO, from having demoed both Marshalls and Rectos in the store, the Recto and Marshall sound nothing alike. Marshalls have a tight bottom end, plenty of crunch in the highs and upper mids. The bottom end on the Recto can get huge, so much so that it can turn into sludge if you want, and can get fizzier or buzzier in the highs than a Marshall will. If you want a Marshall-like sound with plenty of gain on tap, you should check out the Mesa Stiletto, not the Recto.
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
You can get a recto sounding good, you just have to work with it, dialing in a recto is not at all like dialing in any other amp, it's super finicky and you have to really watch the bass and presence as it can get real buzzy and boomy fast. That said, I haven't played an SLO but the soldano hotrod 50 sounded nothing like the recto to me, it was much smoother and warmer.
You can get a recto sounding good, you just have to work with it, dialing in a recto is not at all like dialing in any other amp, it's super finicky and you have to really watch the bass and presence as it can get real buzzy and boomy fast. That said, I haven't played an SLO but the soldano hotrod 50 sounded nothing like the recto to me, it was much smoother and warmer.
ksmith63
New member
SlowGroove
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
calling boogie bill and all the other mesa guru's !!!
calling boogie bill and all the other mesa guru's !!!
anewdefguitarist
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
this makes it sound like you think "sounding good" only involves scooping mids then??
it sounds to me like, if it sounds good, stick with it!
in all honesty, my mxr 10 band eq pedal helped A LOT with fine tuning. it will sound great without mind you, but i really started understanding the EQ after i got the pedal.
for instance, a boogie does typically sound good with a "scooped" setting - but it sounds better with an "open" setting. take those "sweet spots" in the manual with a grain of salt. sure, they sound fine but they are meant to be a STARTING POINT - if you want more mids, add 'em, but be smart about it. i think the mid dial on a recto series boogie is more like a "where do you want the mids to be?" dial. you're not increasing the mids statically, you're PLACING them. ie - the higher you increase the mids dial, the higher the mid frequency goes. the mids are always there, its just a matter of what frequency they accentuate ( kinda like the "tone" knob on a BOSS DS-1 a low tone or a higher tone)
its like this with the bass dial too. think of it as low setting = tighter bass, high setting = booming bass. the best sounds i've personally gotten outta my mesa is with the bass NO higher than 1-2 o'clock - and im speaking for the rectifier series, for a hard rock/metal type tone.
remember: the first mesa boogies were hot rodded fenders (princetons i believe?) and from what i've seen on a lot of fenders - NO MID KNOB. bass/treble. the mids are concentrated in the low end. if im confusing my bad.
this makes it sound like you think "sounding good" only involves scooping mids then??
it sounds to me like, if it sounds good, stick with it!
in all honesty, my mxr 10 band eq pedal helped A LOT with fine tuning. it will sound great without mind you, but i really started understanding the EQ after i got the pedal.
for instance, a boogie does typically sound good with a "scooped" setting - but it sounds better with an "open" setting. take those "sweet spots" in the manual with a grain of salt. sure, they sound fine but they are meant to be a STARTING POINT - if you want more mids, add 'em, but be smart about it. i think the mid dial on a recto series boogie is more like a "where do you want the mids to be?" dial. you're not increasing the mids statically, you're PLACING them. ie - the higher you increase the mids dial, the higher the mid frequency goes. the mids are always there, its just a matter of what frequency they accentuate ( kinda like the "tone" knob on a BOSS DS-1 a low tone or a higher tone)
its like this with the bass dial too. think of it as low setting = tighter bass, high setting = booming bass. the best sounds i've personally gotten outta my mesa is with the bass NO higher than 1-2 o'clock - and im speaking for the rectifier series, for a hard rock/metal type tone.
remember: the first mesa boogies were hot rodded fenders (princetons i believe?) and from what i've seen on a lot of fenders - NO MID KNOB. bass/treble. the mids are concentrated in the low end. if im confusing my bad.
James Rock
Active member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
I think here is where the answer may lie. I believe the original Mesa's were based on Fenders and then the rest evolved from there. Marshalls were also based on Fenders and sound completely different. So origins don't always have alot to do with the end result.
glassman
Electron Herder
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
The Mesa Mark series amps all are based on a hot rodded blackface Fender circuit.
The Mesa Rectifier series amps share a common topography with other hot rodded Marshall circuits. Marshall's are, of course, based on the tweed Bassman circuit using readily available British components.
The Mesa Mark series amps all are based on a hot rodded blackface Fender circuit.
The Mesa Rectifier series amps share a common topography with other hot rodded Marshall circuits. Marshall's are, of course, based on the tweed Bassman circuit using readily available British components.
RLee
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
Quote from the mesaboogie site under history:
"The first Boogie was built as a practical joke (How far out can I boost
this little amp?)...but was in fact so practical in the real sense that top
players saw it, heard it, and began demanding their own. They also liked
the wolf-in-sheeps-clothing approach. Built inside a deceitfully stock
looking Fender Princeton was a hot-rodded circuit based on the 4x10 tweed Bassman."
And I thought this was humorous:
"Tearing apart Fender Princetons eventually became too inefficient a way to build a Boogie
as the demand kept growing. Moreover, CBS Fender was getting suspicious about the number
of transformers being sold to an obscure location in Northern California and cut off the supply.
It was clearly time to move on."
Quote from the mesaboogie site under history:
"The first Boogie was built as a practical joke (How far out can I boost
this little amp?)...but was in fact so practical in the real sense that top
players saw it, heard it, and began demanding their own. They also liked
the wolf-in-sheeps-clothing approach. Built inside a deceitfully stock
looking Fender Princeton was a hot-rodded circuit based on the 4x10 tweed Bassman."
And I thought this was humorous:
"Tearing apart Fender Princetons eventually became too inefficient a way to build a Boogie
as the demand kept growing. Moreover, CBS Fender was getting suspicious about the number
of transformers being sold to an obscure location in Northern California and cut off the supply.
It was clearly time to move on."
Binnerscot
Well-known member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
That would be a very ignorant comment.
The Recto is very different from the Marshall style sound in respect to overall balance of tone and power amp response.
Nothing sounds as "big" as a Recto, but there are some differences from a Marshall to achieve that large sound to include a little sag in the low end, a soft midrange centered more in the low mids and razor blade highs (in a good way).
It really shines for stomping rhythms and contrary to some opinions can get great lead tones. Playing lead on a Recto is a little bit of an adjustment just because it "feels" different than most amps, but the Recto circuit can be really expressive at many gain levels.
The differences are noted thousands of other threads all over the internet. The Recto sound is pretty well known.
That would be a very ignorant comment.
The Recto is very different from the Marshall style sound in respect to overall balance of tone and power amp response.
Nothing sounds as "big" as a Recto, but there are some differences from a Marshall to achieve that large sound to include a little sag in the low end, a soft midrange centered more in the low mids and razor blade highs (in a good way).
It really shines for stomping rhythms and contrary to some opinions can get great lead tones. Playing lead on a Recto is a little bit of an adjustment just because it "feels" different than most amps, but the Recto circuit can be really expressive at many gain levels.
The differences are noted thousands of other threads all over the internet. The Recto sound is pretty well known.
gnuyu2
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
the key to getting tone out of a 'recto', is pushing to rectifier tube.
the 50 watt 'single recto' will get you a lot closer to that soaked saturation. name a dive bar that you can push a 'triple recto' in, and i'll play right-handed. all that horsepower is useless unless you are in Madison Square Garden, anyway. "Recto" has been become more of a fashion plate than a go-to option. more tubes; more chances for blown tubes. solid state rectification gets you louder anyway, if that is your goal. i got a '66 princeton w/ a recto (non-boogied... my tech refused on principle), and it's 18w. the recto is key for it's vintage tone, at a comfortable volume.
the mesa boogie rectos seem to have a high failure rate out of the box, also.
the key to getting tone out of a 'recto', is pushing to rectifier tube.
the 50 watt 'single recto' will get you a lot closer to that soaked saturation. name a dive bar that you can push a 'triple recto' in, and i'll play right-handed. all that horsepower is useless unless you are in Madison Square Garden, anyway. "Recto" has been become more of a fashion plate than a go-to option. more tubes; more chances for blown tubes. solid state rectification gets you louder anyway, if that is your goal. i got a '66 princeton w/ a recto (non-boogied... my tech refused on principle), and it's 18w. the recto is key for it's vintage tone, at a comfortable volume.
the mesa boogie rectos seem to have a high failure rate out of the box, also.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
I got my Boogie Bill handle LONG before I ever played a Mesa amp; and I still do some righteous boogie. :1:
When the Rectos first came out back in the mid-90s I compared one side by side to a vintage BF Deluxe Reverb. The 2-channel EASILY nailed the clean tone of the DR, and it would do it at crushing volume. That was pretty amazing to me.
I don't need a lot of gain. I want the amp to sing, and not produce a lot noise and hash. I like 5150s too--on the cranked up Rhythm channel.
I don't think of the Single, Dual, Triple, or Rectoverb having any basis in the Marshall sound. When you really look at the history of this amp and it's worldwide acceptance, it has to be one of the most popular amps to come out of Petaluma. The Rectifier really is a unique amp, and a lot of bands have created their new sounds from this amp.
If you want more of a Marshall tone, then try one of the amps in the Stiletto Series. These are the Mesa version of a hot-rodded Marshall, with a lot more versatility. I have five Mesa amps at the moment, and I'm in love with the Stiletto Ace 112 combo. That's a potent little package.
If you need more information about the amps, call one of the customer support guys at Mesa. They know how to get the best out of the products. And be sure to read the online Owner's Manuals available on the Mesa Boogie website. Really helps to have one of these in hand when you go to try out the amp--it will help you figure out all the functions, and show you some great sample settings.
Just so you know, I don't own a Recto--it doesn't fit the style of classic rock and blues that I play. My half stack is a Boogie Mark III 200-watt Coliseum head with a matching C90/EVM 412 cab. It has a 6x6L6 power section, so I got the arena rock thing covered. :cool2:
Bill
I got my Boogie Bill handle LONG before I ever played a Mesa amp; and I still do some righteous boogie. :1:
When the Rectos first came out back in the mid-90s I compared one side by side to a vintage BF Deluxe Reverb. The 2-channel EASILY nailed the clean tone of the DR, and it would do it at crushing volume. That was pretty amazing to me.
I don't need a lot of gain. I want the amp to sing, and not produce a lot noise and hash. I like 5150s too--on the cranked up Rhythm channel.
I don't think of the Single, Dual, Triple, or Rectoverb having any basis in the Marshall sound. When you really look at the history of this amp and it's worldwide acceptance, it has to be one of the most popular amps to come out of Petaluma. The Rectifier really is a unique amp, and a lot of bands have created their new sounds from this amp.
If you want more of a Marshall tone, then try one of the amps in the Stiletto Series. These are the Mesa version of a hot-rodded Marshall, with a lot more versatility. I have five Mesa amps at the moment, and I'm in love with the Stiletto Ace 112 combo. That's a potent little package.
If you need more information about the amps, call one of the customer support guys at Mesa. They know how to get the best out of the products. And be sure to read the online Owner's Manuals available on the Mesa Boogie website. Really helps to have one of these in hand when you go to try out the amp--it will help you figure out all the functions, and show you some great sample settings.
Just so you know, I don't own a Recto--it doesn't fit the style of classic rock and blues that I play. My half stack is a Boogie Mark III 200-watt Coliseum head with a matching C90/EVM 412 cab. It has a 6x6L6 power section, so I got the arena rock thing covered. :cool2:
Bill
SlowGroove
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
Part of the Recto family :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUkvbc2HFgg
Sounds good to me . . . however, it is NOT my playing style, not by a longshot.
Fellow forum member, "Some Dude" had a clip on Utoob, where he played his mid 90's (bought used) 2channel Recto, and added the tone settings used.
Best Recto tones i have ever heard. Very nice amp, if played & EQ'ed correctly. Sadly, i can not find that clip any more
James
Part of the Recto family :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUkvbc2HFgg
Sounds good to me . . . however, it is NOT my playing style, not by a longshot.
Fellow forum member, "Some Dude" had a clip on Utoob, where he played his mid 90's (bought used) 2channel Recto, and added the tone settings used.
Best Recto tones i have ever heard. Very nice amp, if played & EQ'ed correctly. Sadly, i can not find that clip any more
James
Empty Pockets
BadHairDayologist
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
Every good amp is just a modded Bassman. :smokin:
Every good amp is just a modded Bassman. :smokin:
eschoendorff
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
Good lord, that sounded awful to my ears. WAY to fizzy. I run a Boogie DC-5 through a Marshall 4x12 - not fizziness at all. Some people claim that the Boogie DC series doesn't have enough gain for metal, but actually, IMHO, the secret to a good metal sound is less gain and more volume.
I just cannot stand that sophomoric recto sound. Unless someone knows how to dial it in, it is a really boomy and fizzy amp.
Part of the Recto family :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUkvbc2HFgg
Sounds good to me . . . however, it is NOT my playing style, not by a longshot.
Fellow forum member, "Some Dude" had a clip on Utoob, where he played his mid 90's (bought used) 2channel Recto, and added the tone settings used.
Best Recto tones i have ever heard. Very nice amp, if played & EQ'ed correctly. Sadly, i can not find that clip any more
James
Good lord, that sounded awful to my ears. WAY to fizzy. I run a Boogie DC-5 through a Marshall 4x12 - not fizziness at all. Some people claim that the Boogie DC series doesn't have enough gain for metal, but actually, IMHO, the secret to a good metal sound is less gain and more volume.
I just cannot stand that sophomoric recto sound. Unless someone knows how to dial it in, it is a really boomy and fizzy amp.
SlowGroove
New member
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
That is why i love amps, like a maxed out ab165 Bassman (into a 2x15), Laney Klipp, Matamp GT1, Orange OR80, Electric Amp USA, Vox AC50 CPH !
One man's (((loose))) is another man's tone !
James
That is why i love amps, like a maxed out ab165 Bassman (into a 2x15), Laney Klipp, Matamp GT1, Orange OR80, Electric Amp USA, Vox AC50 CPH !
One man's (((loose))) is another man's tone !
James
ratherdashing
Kablamminator
Re: Question about Mesa Rectifier series
I think you're talking about power tubes, not rectifier tubes. You don't "push" a rectifier tube in the same way as a preamp or power amp tube. The rectifier tube is completely out of the audio signal path, and performs a very different function than the other tubes.
The rectifier circuit, be it tube or solid state, is responsible for converting AC power from the wall into DC power for the power tubes. The main difference with tube rectifiers is they are slow to "catch up" when the power tubes suddenly need more power, which results in a temporary (measured in milliseconds) brown-out condition. This is what people are talking about when they say "rectifier sag". You notice it mostly when you hit the strings really hard, or you slam the front of the amp with an overdrive or boost of some kind. In practice, it has an effect similar to a compressor. Solid state rectifiers (diodes) are much more efficient and deliver constant power with no sag.
Whether or not a tube rectifier sags is not dependent on the wattage of the amp. It is dependent on what's coming into the amp.
... except the Single Rectifier doesn't have a tube rectifier: it's solid state only, so this kind of invalidates your idea of "pushing the rectifier tube".
Again, I think you're talking about power tubes. I also get the sense that you don't really know much about these amps.
Not necessarily. Mesa amps get most of their tone from the preamp. They have a hot preamp with tons of gain slamming a fairly cold power amp. That's where the Mesa tone comes from, and it's also why they tend to sound better at low volumes than, say, a Marshall of the same wattage. Metal guys, for example, love amps that get all their distortion from the preamp. They need a power amp with tons of headroom to keep things tight under high gain. The other benefit is that your clean channel stays clean even at high volume.
I've seen plenty of guys play clubs with Dual and Triple Recs. They weren't all that much louder than the guys with combo amps. The loudest guitarist I ever heard was playing a cranked blackface Super.
Remember, power rating has a lot more to do with clean headroom than it does volume. A 100W tube amp isn't much louder than a 50W tube amp, and a 50W tube amp isn't much louder than a 15W tube amp.
Again, volume isn't always the goal with a high wattage amp. Besides, Dual and Triple Rectifiers have a switchable rectifier (either tube or solid state), so if someone wants the solid state rectifier, it's there.
A lot of touring pros rely on Recto amps. They're not a fashion accessory. Like all Mesas, they're built to be powerful, reliable pro-quality amps.
What do you mean "non-boogied"?
According to who?
Your post really gives me the impression that you've had very little experience with these amps. Since you seem to be getting what you want from an 18W Princeton, you're clearly not the target audience for them anyway.
I think you're talking about power tubes, not rectifier tubes. You don't "push" a rectifier tube in the same way as a preamp or power amp tube. The rectifier tube is completely out of the audio signal path, and performs a very different function than the other tubes.
The rectifier circuit, be it tube or solid state, is responsible for converting AC power from the wall into DC power for the power tubes. The main difference with tube rectifiers is they are slow to "catch up" when the power tubes suddenly need more power, which results in a temporary (measured in milliseconds) brown-out condition. This is what people are talking about when they say "rectifier sag". You notice it mostly when you hit the strings really hard, or you slam the front of the amp with an overdrive or boost of some kind. In practice, it has an effect similar to a compressor. Solid state rectifiers (diodes) are much more efficient and deliver constant power with no sag.
Whether or not a tube rectifier sags is not dependent on the wattage of the amp. It is dependent on what's coming into the amp.
... except the Single Rectifier doesn't have a tube rectifier: it's solid state only, so this kind of invalidates your idea of "pushing the rectifier tube".
Again, I think you're talking about power tubes. I also get the sense that you don't really know much about these amps.
Not necessarily. Mesa amps get most of their tone from the preamp. They have a hot preamp with tons of gain slamming a fairly cold power amp. That's where the Mesa tone comes from, and it's also why they tend to sound better at low volumes than, say, a Marshall of the same wattage. Metal guys, for example, love amps that get all their distortion from the preamp. They need a power amp with tons of headroom to keep things tight under high gain. The other benefit is that your clean channel stays clean even at high volume.
I've seen plenty of guys play clubs with Dual and Triple Recs. They weren't all that much louder than the guys with combo amps. The loudest guitarist I ever heard was playing a cranked blackface Super.
Remember, power rating has a lot more to do with clean headroom than it does volume. A 100W tube amp isn't much louder than a 50W tube amp, and a 50W tube amp isn't much louder than a 15W tube amp.
Again, volume isn't always the goal with a high wattage amp. Besides, Dual and Triple Rectifiers have a switchable rectifier (either tube or solid state), so if someone wants the solid state rectifier, it's there.
A lot of touring pros rely on Recto amps. They're not a fashion accessory. Like all Mesas, they're built to be powerful, reliable pro-quality amps.
What do you mean "non-boogied"?
According to who?
Your post really gives me the impression that you've had very little experience with these amps. Since you seem to be getting what you want from an 18W Princeton, you're clearly not the target audience for them anyway.
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