question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Lightning I can't think of the first reason to alter your participation on this forum and it always takes more than one reason before you even get spoken to about behavior, which is the only thing that gets folks in trouble around here. Varying opinions are not barred or looked down apon and they will never get you banned.

I am happy to tell you how much I get paid, and the huge sum of naddazippyzero shows up in my mailbox the first of every month. I am in no way affiliated with the SD company and my opinions are all my own. I participated on this forum first as a member and later as assistant babysitter (Mojo is lead babysitter) because I believe in the products, in the company as a whole and I believe that the members on this site are the coolest and some of the most well informed on the internet.

Evan is a badass guitar player.

I have been on this site for something like 4 years now and I got my information on the JB from Evan himself many times in the past when this topic has come up. I'm sorry that the answers take all the fun out of the conjecture about the JB past and present, but facts are facts.

I can't comment on the evolution of the Antiquity series of pickups because I don't have the answers. It is possible that changes were made along the line but I do not know if that is true or false. I have heard rumors about the earlier models and their magnet strength, but those rumors are not proven one way or the other. Only Seymour would know for certain.

I hope that answers some of your questions,

Robert
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

I think knowing the JB is the same now as it always has been, takes all the mystery and mystique about their mojo.

It would be unusual for the entire building of the pickup or any assembled product in the US or abroad, not to have changed even in the slightest over the couse of 20 or so years.

It's hard to imagine that the suppliers of say magnets, wire, bobbin fabrication and even the copper itself would be the very same after 20 years. Distributors come and go, especially once you contract with overseas companies. If another supplier can supply magnets for 20% less, it makes sense to give them a contract, if it doesn't alter the product significantly.

Price aside, suppliers themselves get constantly different raw materials, as they are a business that has to stay profitable to stay afloat, and also meet supply/demand.

That said I couldn't imagine SD cutting corners at the expense of making a superior product, but I'm sure they might have tried saving a buck or two if they can do it more efficiently, that's just good business sense.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

I got toasted by a guitar player with 3 and 1/2 fingers last night and then came home and got pickled. Apologies go out to any one in any thread that I may have offended last night. That childish outburst was me telling myself to go to sleep (kick me off the forum deal). Rob you do a great job, I actually did think you got paid for it.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Robert S. said:
I'll say it again, there is no difference between the first JBs made and the ones shipped yesterday, other than age. While theories may be fun to play with there is alot of grasping at straws in this thread.

Unless you are doing an A/B with 2 JBs in the same guitar with the exact same components and the exact same set-up (pickup height/ pole heights ect) any comparison is not valid, and then you still have the age factor to deal with.

Guessing can be alot of fun, but it's not always productive.
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It's what I did (not guessing - same guitar, heights, amps (plural) and glasses of scotch, mea culpa - I didn't measure the resistance), but the oldest is nicest, (see, pickling is good for you!) and I have no reason to lie other than the usual, yer honour.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

I'd never say that they don't sound different, just that they are made the same.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Put it this way, I'd rather Seymour Duncan were the subject of conjecture and rumor rather than no one talking about us at all. But in the interest of, shall we say, THE TRUTH, I'm going to make a few bold statements.

We have documented written and pictorial assembly procedures for all our pickups. They include the materials (including the type of magnet, wire gauge, etc.), assembly techniques (including number of turns, pitch, traverse, hookup, etc.), and quality control specs (including d.c. resistance, impedance, magnetic polarity, cosmetic specifications, etc.).

We have a very QC-oriented production floor and a full time QC manager. We also have a Purchasing and Raw Materials Manager who makes sure that all the parts that go into our pickup are checked as soon as they're received to make sure they're in spec. We're not shy about rejecting materials or finished goods that are out of spec. In fact, production employees are encouraged to find pickups that don't pass muster.

Bottom line: the old pickups are made exactly the same and with the same materials as the new ones.

That's not to say that old pickups -- and old guitars -- will sound different over time. Time affects pickups, particularly alnico magnets, just as it does wood, wire and the nickel finish on a humbucker cover, for example. So I don't discount that old pickups sound different. But that has to do with the affect of time on the pickup. Not deviations in the materials or assembly procedures.

As for the JB, the pickup was designed 30 years ago by Seymour for Jeff Beck and can be heard for the first time on Blow by Blow's "Cause We've Ended as Lovers." However, out of respect to Jeff, we've never called it the Jeff Beck -- though it's commonly (and erroneously) referred to as the Jeff Beck Model. If you ask anyone at Seymour Duncan, we'll tell you that it stands for "Jazz Blues," but if you refer to the "Jeff Beck Model," we'll know what you're (mistakenly) referring to.


psychodave said:
I was told the "MRS". SD owned the company now through divorce and Seymour is only involved with the Antiquity p-up. I could be wrong though. :smack:
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This is a good one that comes up every once in awhile.

The company is owned 50/50 by the same two people that founded it in '76: Seymour W. Duncan and Cathy Carter Duncan. It's true that Cathy and Seymour were once married and now they're not; but the ownership of the company never changed. In case you're wondering, Cathy is more involved in the business-end of things; and Seymour is more involved in pickup design, custom shop, quality control, vintage pickup restorations, high-level artist relations and, of course, the Antiquity series. But he's here in the office every day winding pickups. Also, Antiquity is a brand that is wholly owned by Seymour Duncan pickups. No different from our other brands (like Basslines, Duncan Designed, Custom Shop, etc.).


Lightning said:
I asked Evan if he played guitar...he never answered (I'll take that as a no).
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Lightning strikes... Ouch! Dude, I didn't see your question. I've been on a family vacation the last week and haven't been on the User Group Forum. Today is my first day back, thankyouverymuch.

Actually, I've been playing for 30 years semi-professionally and I'm currently rhythm guitarist and musical director for the Seymour Duncan Band. If any of you are going to be in Tokyo next Tuesday, you might see us play at ESP Guitars' 30th Anniversary Party. Does being flown to Japan to play a one night gig qualify me as a guitar player?


Lightning said:
how much does Evan pay you to tell me not to think?
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G'head fess up, Robert. I pay him in guitar lessons.

(Not).

Oh, and a few other things.

There was no lone gunman.

Scott F and Simon F are the same guy.

We are not alone.

All male fashion models are programmed to become killing machines.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

I can say one thing that is definitely DIFFERENT about the first JB's...

THE STICKER ON THE BOTTOM...

I have 2 extremely old JB's and the stickers on the bottom read "THE JB MODEL"...

They sound so much better than the new ones... actually I think the double cream one sounds best because of the way the cream bobbins have aged the coils over the years... :laugh2:

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the fact that SD like any other company has something called production tolerances... probably somewhere around +/- 5%... EVAN?

That means that any given JB could be up to 10% hotter than another one... this would account for a small but noticeable difference in sound... also, magnet strength can deteriorate at an accelerated rate if the pickups is/was exposed to nearby magnetic fields such as OTHER PICKUPS, a SPEAKER, or one of the many devices and objects in our daily enviroment that emit a magnetic field... this would definitely "mellow" the sound of a pickup.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

BachToRock said:
SD like any other company has something called production tolerances... probably somewhere around +/- 5%.
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Very true. Actually, the tolerance on the diameter of the magnet wire we use is +/- 5%. We know we can wind to an exact number of turns. So, the d.c. resistance will be +/- 5% of the median spec, which is within the level that the ears which belong to 99.9% of guitar players can discern.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

FWIW, i emailed dimarzio about the same thing "old vs new" and was told that
the older super D's had lamenated bobbins and 3 conductor wire but that is the only differences.
i also asked about why a old pup sounds different from a brand new one and steve blucher has a real good reply he said " if you have a brand new gibson les paul that is built EXACTLY like the old 1959 one the old one will still sound better! it is call the aging process"
so the old JB will sound wamrer than a brand new one even though they are built exactly the same :dance:
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Evan Skopp said:
Now that's something Steve and I agree on!
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:laugh2: evan i also figured all this older JB sound better stuff was due to natural aging as well as maybe some
"wow this duncan is 25 years old syndrom" thinking :laugh2:
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Given that tolerence of +/- 5%, that means that it's very possible that even several JBs or any pup, from the same production month, may sound different from EACH other, let alone from much newer models.

My curiousity concering my old & newer JBs was leaning on the materal theroy only slightly. I was really buying into the thought of the the coils or magnets in my older JB were just finding their place in the world and my newer just needs some aging.

Now that you mentioned it Evan, if an "aged" JB, or any pup, is more desirable to gtr players due to it's tone, doesn't SD have an process that ages the magnet or entire pickup assy and would it be in SD's interets to do this process to a selective group of pickups?

Again just curious.

Boze.
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

boze said:
Given that tolerence of +/- 5%, that means that it's very possible that even several JBs or any pup, from the same production month, may sound different from EACH other, let alone from much newer models.
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In theory, yes. However, in practice, 99% of the guitar players out there can't discern the difference from the low end of the spec to the high end. Some can. I know Jerry Donahue and Blues Saraceno can. But they are a rare breed with highly trained ears.

We could tighten our tolerances by purchasing magnet wire with tighter tolerances. But that would seriously impact the price of our pickups -- and just for the less than 1% of guitarists who could hear the difference.


boze said:
Now that you mentioned it Evan, if an "aged" JB, or any pup, is more desirable to gtr players due to it's tone, doesn't SD have an process that ages the magnet or entire pickup assy and would it be in SD's interets to do this process to a selective group of pickups?
Click to expand...

That's the concept behind the Antiquity series. Aged pickups. "Built to look, sound, smell and taste like a 40 year old pickup should."

Thanks for the interesting thread.

Best,
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Evan Skopp said:
Thanks for the interesting thread.

Best,
Click to expand...

Thanks for just being there, Evan. Its what makes this forum stand head and shoulders above the rest. Absolutely unambiguous information.

To borrow a phrase from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" . . .

". . . we have top men working on it. Top . . . men . . ." :laugh2:
 
Re: question about old JBs vs newer ones...

Evan,

My apologies for that terrible presentation. Week before last was cruel, when I read what I had written last Friday night I thought I just got drunk and came home and kicked the dog.

That's not my nature, even when drunk, even after getting smoked my a 3 and 1/2 finger guitar player.

Spent this past week embarrassed, doing soul searching...why did I act like that?

I told a friend what I had done, even referred to it as kicked the dog, and he said "You don't kick the dog, Dude, you must be ticked at Duncan or something".

Wow, Evan he was right. I reread my drunken attack on you guys and realized that I wanted to brink up, rather ask about coatings in reference to the JB and remembered (early on this new forum, thread by Shreadin Ed, about wire gauge, the one where I ask if you played guitar and you didn't respond) that you had referred to wire gauge and coatings as "The Secret Sauce".

That was it...I wasn't kicking the dog...Man I was really mad about that when I wrote it.

The truth serum let it be known how much an issue that is to me.

Screaming Demon doesn't tell me how that pickup sounds but 10k #43 does.

Let coatings be known and my ears could learn the differences.

I would still have to buy the pickups to learn the differences and would still have 11 electric's to put them in.

So in the end does it really effect SD sales?

You have to admit, it's weird, the SD forum provides a place where we can talk about any manufactures pickups but we can't talk wholly about SD pickups.

P.S. I could have said that without attacking you guys...Sorry Man. Chuck
 
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