Question about the Gibson 496r

[Inflames626]

So the Epiphone Gothic Floyded Explorer I was working on has started doing some odd things.

I have Gibson 496r/500ts in it, with a phase switch on the neck pickup, Triple Shots on both pups, a killswitch on the bridge pickup, and a 500k linear tone pot with .047 cap. Volume knobs are independent.

Going from audio .022 to linear .047 really helped change the tone more to what I hear in my head, but since then the rest of the electronics have started to interact differently (I know independent volume knobs will "see" things in the circuit and change tone, mainly by losing treble as they are turned down).

Mainly the tone of the 496r has changed.

Is the 496r supposed to be a hotter, darker sounding neck pickup? I know it's called "hot ceramic" but it only measures 8.5k on my multimeter. I expected it to be like an EMG 60 but now it sounds like a really hot Alnico 2 Pro.

However, I think my solder joints were not good on my DPDT phase switch I had it connected to. I went back and redid those connections and suddenly the pickup is very dark and hot. I assume when it was bright and clear earlier (like an EMG 60) the pot was not getting 100% of the signal.

The weird thing is I can try the Triple Shot in all configurations and I don't get a lot of variety in sound save parallel thinning them out slightly. I bump the neck pickup pot or pull the phase switch and suddenly the pickup is very bright and clean, not notched and hollow like I expected.

Going to the middle toggle position and pulling the phase switch doesn't seem to affect the 500t bridge pickup at all.

Also the phase switch is weird in that when it is in phase the volume increases when turning clockwise, but when the phase switch is pulled out of phase the knob has to be turned counterclockwise to increase volume.

Ultimately all this is not bad as I like the variety of tones, but it all seems very strange, especially since I've been on the solder joints over and over, everything's shiny, etc.

And it seems a little janky that I can bump the body of my guitar or the neck pot to change tones.

Again, I find I generally like Gibson pickups, but they don't make a wide variety of sounds like the Custom 5/Custom. Gibbys seem to kind of do what they do and that's it.

So I thought I'd check to see how the 496r is supposed to sound.

My guess is it's a grounding issue of some kind, or the DPDT points need resoldering, or the hot wire to the tone pot needs to be resoldered, but I've been on those over and over again so I'm out of ideas.

Much thanks.

 

[Inflames626]

As an addendum, when the 496r is bright/clear, it is really mismatched in volume to the 500t. I assume this means the 496r pickup really should sound hotter/darker/louder to better match the 500t.

 

[Inflames626]

Also, I installed a completely new import style box switch and it seems to be working fine. So hopefully the switch can be eliminated as a culprit.

 

[freefrog]

Is the 496r supposed to be a hotter, darker sounding neck pickup? I know it's called "hot ceramic" but it only measures 8.5k on my multimeter. I expected it to be like an EMG 60 but now it sounds like a really hot Alnico 2 Pro.

In my archived data, the 496R has the same inductance than a bridge AlniCo Pro*. And according to the frequential screenshots that I systematically do with pickups, it tends to be a relatively loud neck PU with lots of low mids (despite of the mild gaussing of its short ceramic mag).

FWIW.

*EDIT - The inductive values mentioned being 4.82H for the 496R vs 4.8H for an A2Pb. IOW, the 496R has the inductance of a classic bridge PU, reason why it works in bridge position IME/IMHO. But it has a stronger magnetism and noticeably more stray capacitance as well as a higher Q factor due to the alloys used, reason why it might be felt as dark (depending on the parms usually involved with passive PU's, of course: acoustic resonance of the guitar, total resistive load of its pots, overall capacitive load of wiring + cable, input impedance of the circuit in which it's plugged).

 

[Seashore]

I haven't used the 496R in my Explorer for a long time, but my recollection of it is definitely hot, thick, and dark-sounding. Used it for sludge doom jams with my old drummer.

 

[beaubrummels]

Mine wasn't dark when i had it in a Les Paul Studio. Clean it was chimy, and sounded like a loud PAF neck. But with distortion, it was a liquid mid kind of pickup.

 

[Inflames626]

In my archived data, the 496R has the same inductance than a bridge AlniCo Pro*. And according to the frequential screenshots that I systematically do with pickups, it tends to be a relatively loud neck PU with lots of low mids (despite of the mild gaussing of its short ceramic mag).

FWIW.

*EDIT - The inductive values mentioned being 4.82H for the 496R vs 4.8H for an A2Pb. IOW, the 496R has the inductance of a classic bridge PU, reason why it works in bridge position IME/IMHO. But it has a stronger magnetism and noticeably more stray capacitance as well as a higher Q factor due to the alloys used, reason why it might be felt as dark (depending on the parms usually involved with passive PU's, of course: acoustic resonance of the guitar, total resistive load of its pots, overall capacitive load of wiring + cable, input impedance of the circuit in which it's plugged).

You are the best freefrog .

All the tones everyone has described I am getting, just not in the way I was expecting, especially with the phase.

With such a chimey clean tone at times, I expected it to sound like a Classic 57, 59, or Seth, but it's bright and clear clean and yet hot and cutting when distorted. I find that an odd combination from a single pickup, especially when the Triple Shots don't seem to have much of an effect on it.

 

[freefrog]

You are the best freefrog .

All the tones everyone has described I am getting, just not in the way I was expecting, especially with the phase.

With such a chimey clean tone at times, I expected it to sound like a Classic 57, 59, or Seth, but it's bright and clear clean and yet hot and cutting when distorted. I find that an odd combination from a single pickup, especially when the Triple Shots don't seem to have much of an effect on it.

Thx for the kind words but I'm apparently not so good because I don't really feel able to fully elucidate what you experiment with the Triple Shots...

I've converted once a 496R from coax braided shielded cable to 4 conductors wiring with Mogami. I don't remember it as really different from other humbuckers with a similar wiring so maybe something "odd" is effectively happening with your guitar.

That being said:

-I'm not really surprised by the faint difference due to the phase switch: the more 2 PU's differ in output and EQing, the less OOP will "comb filter" their tone. And a 500T & 496R OOP are precisely a bit like two normal P.A.F. clones whose volume pots would be permanently @ 10/10 & 8/10 respectively.

-I also see what might explain the moderate change in tone when the 496R is in parallel: as I said, it's a pickup with a high inner "stray capacitance", IME, and this feature can surely limit the difference between series and parallel operations. Now, are you sure it's effectively in parallel in this case? Is it not in single coil mode (as it can be checked by ear with the hum or its absence)?

If something else happens, I've no clear idea of what it is for the moment. Maybe I'll share a few thoughts about the "differential" effect of parasitic capacitance later, if time permits.

 

[Inflames626]

freefrog , the Triple Shots seem to be working correctly. When connected to a multimeter they show the readings one would expect--8.5k in series, about half that for each coil (one slightly more than the other--I forget which), and about 1/4 of series value for parallel.

I have found that some pickups sound better split and others parallel. For these pickups I find parallel more useful as it thins out the tone and adds more articulation--much like going parallel on a Music Man bass might. The Triple Shots just do not change the character of the 496r/500t entirely as it does with something like the SD Custom/Custom 5.

Yes, I almost consider the phase switch to not be a phase switch but a clean switch. I am getting all the tones I want but just not in the ways I anticipated (taper of the neck pot OOP being backwards to in phase, etc.)

The Epi cavity route is very small. An Alpha DPDT long shaft push/pull pot will barely fit into it (it is almost too tall). The Shadow volume pot/killswitch is also tall, and having a slightly larger mylar tone cap as opposed to ceramic disc makes that pot taller.

I am fairly sure the problem is a wire somewhere is being compressed whenever the cavity cover is tightened. I only leave the cover partially tightened so it bulges slightly in the center. Wherever that electrical gremlin is I have tired of chasing it as long as the guitar works. Going back to redo the joints just seems to move the problem around.

The Shadow killpot has grounding tabs on top of the switch. In a small guitar cavity like this one they help because everything can be grounded to the upward facing side of the pot. But I find these lugs are less reliable than grounding directly to the pot casing (which would have to be on the side of the Shadow killpot since the bottom is the plastic momentary switch).

I thought perhaps the biggest reason for the tone changes vs. stock (dependent volume knobs, linear for volume, audio for tone, .022 cap) vs. my modifications (independent volume knobs, audio for volume, linear for tone, .047 cap), is that all of my mods would effectively darken the instrument.

While I know resistance is not the full story on output, I just found the 496r to be very dark when distorted for it only being 8.5k, and I expected it to sound brighter since it is ceramic (which it does whenever the phase switch is used).

Much thanks.