Questions about open humbucker cover.
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LLL
New member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Awwww jeezum crow... this crap again. :33:
I'll be as polite... no, politically correct (this is SD after all) as I possibly can, so tender feelings and sensitivities aren't crushed into oblivion:
Some people (myself for example) take our gear & tone very seriously, and we want to know, "why does this do that?".
And sometimes that means we expound upon it... even discuss it. And even discuss the "SCIENCE!" about it.
So what?
Maybe there should be a separate sub-forum for people who dig these subjects at an intricate level... I don't know.
But this ******** **** gets old.
My take? Never used open humbucker, but I have used covered vs uncovered Seth Lovers, and there is a difference. I would use the adjectives "tamer" and "more polite" for the covered (vs the uncovered).
Awwww jeezum crow... this crap again. :33:
I'll be as polite... no, politically correct (this is SD after all) as I possibly can, so tender feelings and sensitivities aren't crushed into oblivion:
Some people (myself for example) take our gear & tone very seriously, and we want to know, "why does this do that?".
And sometimes that means we expound upon it... even discuss it. And even discuss the "SCIENCE!" about it.
So what?
Maybe there should be a separate sub-forum for people who dig these subjects at an intricate level... I don't know.
But this ******** **** gets old.
My take? Never used open humbucker, but I have used covered vs uncovered Seth Lovers, and there is a difference. I would use the adjectives "tamer" and "more polite" for the covered (vs the uncovered).
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
I think discussing the detailed science is great, as long as it's connected to the original topic and the person responding can show how it has a practical bearing on the original question and the details are useful in helping the original poster either answer their question or solve their problem - that is science well applied. Your personal anecdote of your experience with Seths is a great example, and very practical and useful feedback. That shouldn't be in a separate forum but right along side the main discussion.
It's those one or two 'special' people that get on here for the sole purpose of a nitpick pi$$ing match over scientific details they scraped from Google searches and serve no practical purpose in answering the original question. Those are the joy of the forum, aren't they?
I think discussing the detailed science is great, as long as it's connected to the original topic and the person responding can show how it has a practical bearing on the original question and the details are useful in helping the original poster either answer their question or solve their problem - that is science well applied. Your personal anecdote of your experience with Seths is a great example, and very practical and useful feedback. That shouldn't be in a separate forum but right along side the main discussion.
It's those one or two 'special' people that get on here for the sole purpose of a nitpick pi$$ing match over scientific details they scraped from Google searches and serve no practical purpose in answering the original question. Those are the joy of the forum, aren't they?
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Understanding eddy currents and electrostatic versus electromagnetic interference is practical information, and it does relate to the OP and later posts.
So we agree that the science is sound, why don't you prove that these effects are inaudible? Why should the onus be on me to prove that you can hear them?
Understanding eddy currents and electrostatic versus electromagnetic interference is practical information, and it does relate to the OP and later posts.
So we agree that the science is sound, why don't you prove that these effects are inaudible? Why should the onus be on me to prove that you can hear them?
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Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
In an earlier thread, I had said that my view was that if a difference is under 1dB, it can't be heard, so the same rule could apply here; if the eddy current losses associated with a open top cover are under 1dB, they can't be heard. But Frank Falbo's view is that <1dB difference can be amplified with gain, so the 1dB rule would only apply to a squeaky clean, linear amplification. Whether or not there would be a loss in peak resonance more or less than 1dB depends on a handful of factors, but if you hold Frank's view that disortion brings out small differences, the odds increase that you would hear the difference in resonant damping in your particular setup.
In an earlier thread, I had said that my view was that if a difference is under 1dB, it can't be heard, so the same rule could apply here; if the eddy current losses associated with a open top cover are under 1dB, they can't be heard. But Frank Falbo's view is that <1dB difference can be amplified with gain, so the 1dB rule would only apply to a squeaky clean, linear amplification. Whether or not there would be a loss in peak resonance more or less than 1dB depends on a handful of factors, but if you hold Frank's view that disortion brings out small differences, the odds increase that you would hear the difference in resonant damping in your particular setup.
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beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Dead wrong, Chumly. You made the assertion - you provide the proof.
Dead wrong, Chumly. You made the assertion - you provide the proof.
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
What assertion? You still haven't specified.
What assertion? You still haven't specified.
eclecticsynergy
Well-known member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Good point here. Science often has to reconcile theory with practical real world applications, and this is a great example of how apparent discrepancies can surface. Guitar-amp-speaker can be a nonlinear and highly dynamic system, one which is different for just about every player. The ±1dB rule stands unchallenged. Yet it's not unreasonable to acknowledge that tiny differences at the pickup, while initially imperceptible, can still translate to noticeable tonal changes in the final sound.
Good point here. Science often has to reconcile theory with practical real world applications, and this is a great example of how apparent discrepancies can surface. Guitar-amp-speaker can be a nonlinear and highly dynamic system, one which is different for just about every player. The ±1dB rule stands unchallenged. Yet it's not unreasonable to acknowledge that tiny differences at the pickup, while initially imperceptible, can still translate to noticeable tonal changes in the final sound.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
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vinnie1971
New member
Questions about open humbucker cover.
All I can add to this is that on my very bright fender amp and on my very bright oil city brass knuckle humbucker pickups, I noted a barely perceptible difference. It was like going from 500k pots to 250k pots when everything was bright, it was almost negligible. The net effect was that the bass was slightly more noticeable when covered and the highest trebles slightly warmer. I liked the barely noticeable difference but my covers would not stay on as they were cheap chrome plated copper ones and solder just kept coming away. The difference was so small I can live without it.
I can hear the difference in these demos it's very subtle - barely perceptible but it is there. Listen with could headphones with the volume comfortable loud and may be you can hear it too.
Will anyone hear it recorded in a song with other instruments or in stage? I doubt it.
https://youtu.be/axc83y6LhZk
https://youtu.be/D756154qUdo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
All I can add to this is that on my very bright fender amp and on my very bright oil city brass knuckle humbucker pickups, I noted a barely perceptible difference. It was like going from 500k pots to 250k pots when everything was bright, it was almost negligible. The net effect was that the bass was slightly more noticeable when covered and the highest trebles slightly warmer. I liked the barely noticeable difference but my covers would not stay on as they were cheap chrome plated copper ones and solder just kept coming away. The difference was so small I can live without it.
I can hear the difference in these demos it's very subtle - barely perceptible but it is there. Listen with could headphones with the volume comfortable loud and may be you can hear it too.
Will anyone hear it recorded in a song with other instruments or in stage? I doubt it.
https://youtu.be/axc83y6LhZk
https://youtu.be/D756154qUdo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
To use the ±1dB "rule" (which I don't necessarily agree with for us but I'll get to that later) I could make very small, fraction of a dB changes affecting extremely narrow frequency areas and the differences would be whether a cranked up amp through a 4x12 would hold together, or flub out when picking fast metal riffs. The tone of a sustained note would be, for all intents and purposes, unchanged. Even under the heavy distortion. But the transient could contain enough lower frequencies to push the speaker cone to the point of pain for that fraction of a millisecond to make the speaker handle the rest of the frequency content differently, of course with some recovery time. So even beyond the ability of a human ear to hear a difference, we are making slight changes that affect the overall experience. THAT'S how much deeper this goes than just "No human can hear 0.2dB"
Back on topic. Most of the time people can hear eddy current losses if I show them in realtime. Very small ones may never be "heard" in a normal, controlled experiment. But if I say "Watch how when you pick back toward the bridge for that squeaky, squawky in-between sound on a strat, (high resonant peak) the pick scrape loses some of that super high frequency glass that just punishes the front end of that Fender cranked up to 7." And then, it is not confirmation bias, it's not the power of suggestion, simply by designing the experiment to reveal the difference, a light bulb goes off and the artist says "YEAH! I can feel it, it's different!" And I get to say "Which do you like better?" which I have to admit, is pretty rewarding...
Shortest answer on the covers is, as has been discussed, open covers impart a smaller difference than a closed cover. That is scientifically sound. Can you notice the difference? I don't know, I'd have to sit with you and your rig and see if you notice. Honestly it's a small enough difference that if I were giving advice...some of what we do is fashion. If you like the look of the open metal covers then by all means put them on!!! But for example, when designing pickups, well...there's a reason Fluence humbuckers have an (undisclosed) alloy or plastic top, but do not have metal sides. But that's Fluence. Different rules apply.
Final thought on the ±1dB: Blind and scientific studies like this lead to generalizations, and include a cross section of society. For those of us who eat/sleep/breathe guitar, our senses are heightened in these areas. We are also the "driver" of the car. We feel differences as well as hear them, and the gain, compression, clipping, cascading clipping (clipping into clipping exponent) speaker cone excursion, air impedance, among many other things influence the final overall playing experience.
Ask a group of 10 random people in the audience whether they can tell the difference from the 1st row between the TS9 and the TS808 on the guitarist's pedalboard. Maybe it's 1 person out of 10, but...it's the guitarist...
Yes. I have 2 points on this matter, the first, same as I made in another thread. Under gain, with distortion and clipping characteristics, a small difference at the pickup can become noticeable in the electrical signal. But also it can manifest itself in the speaker cone and the air itself! In other words, if we were to compare a direct signal to the power/cabinet sound, even if the direct signal includes an IR of the same power amp and speaker cabinet, there are things that happen in the cabinet to multiply small pickup differences, mostly in the lower and midrange frequencies. With eddy currents we mostly consider them high frequency losses, so forgive me because technically I'm going off topic here:
To use the ±1dB "rule" (which I don't necessarily agree with for us but I'll get to that later) I could make very small, fraction of a dB changes affecting extremely narrow frequency areas and the differences would be whether a cranked up amp through a 4x12 would hold together, or flub out when picking fast metal riffs. The tone of a sustained note would be, for all intents and purposes, unchanged. Even under the heavy distortion. But the transient could contain enough lower frequencies to push the speaker cone to the point of pain for that fraction of a millisecond to make the speaker handle the rest of the frequency content differently, of course with some recovery time. So even beyond the ability of a human ear to hear a difference, we are making slight changes that affect the overall experience. THAT'S how much deeper this goes than just "No human can hear 0.2dB"
Back on topic. Most of the time people can hear eddy current losses if I show them in realtime. Very small ones may never be "heard" in a normal, controlled experiment. But if I say "Watch how when you pick back toward the bridge for that squeaky, squawky in-between sound on a strat, (high resonant peak) the pick scrape loses some of that super high frequency glass that just punishes the front end of that Fender cranked up to 7." And then, it is not confirmation bias, it's not the power of suggestion, simply by designing the experiment to reveal the difference, a light bulb goes off and the artist says "YEAH! I can feel it, it's different!" And I get to say "Which do you like better?" which I have to admit, is pretty rewarding...
Shortest answer on the covers is, as has been discussed, open covers impart a smaller difference than a closed cover. That is scientifically sound. Can you notice the difference? I don't know, I'd have to sit with you and your rig and see if you notice. Honestly it's a small enough difference that if I were giving advice...some of what we do is fashion. If you like the look of the open metal covers then by all means put them on!!! But for example, when designing pickups, well...there's a reason Fluence humbuckers have an (undisclosed) alloy or plastic top, but do not have metal sides. But that's Fluence. Different rules apply.
Final thought on the ±1dB: Blind and scientific studies like this lead to generalizations, and include a cross section of society. For those of us who eat/sleep/breathe guitar, our senses are heightened in these areas. We are also the "driver" of the car. We feel differences as well as hear them, and the gain, compression, clipping, cascading clipping (clipping into clipping exponent) speaker cone excursion, air impedance, among many other things influence the final overall playing experience.
Ask a group of 10 random people in the audience whether they can tell the difference from the 1st row between the TS9 and the TS808 on the guitarist's pedalboard. Maybe it's 1 person out of 10, but...it's the guitarist...
RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Perhaps you would understand an arithmetical representation of what you are doing:
Pₑ * (Ap * 0) = 0
Where:
Pₑ = Elementary Physics properties
Ap = Practical application
Perhaps you would understand an arithmetical representation of what you are doing:
Pₑ * (Ap * 0) = 0
Where:
Pₑ = Elementary Physics properties
Ap = Practical application
darthphineas
New member
DavidRavenMoon
New member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
That notion is incorrect. The issue is eddy currents. When a conductor is in the presence of a magnetic field, small swirling electrical currents form on the surface of that conductor. And any time you have a flowing electrical current, you have an accompanying magnetic field. This magnetic field opposes the field of the pickups permanent magnet.
This has the effect of dulling the high end, and flattening the resonant peak of the pickup. You can clearly hear this with regular closed covers. Depending on the material and thickness, it can be subtle or more obvious.
The T shaped cutouts on Filter'Tron pickups are there to help break up the eddy currents.
So an open top shouldn't do too much to the tone. But then you have a closed loop conductor around the coils. This can also change the tone. This is why some old DeArmond pickups, like the ones used on the Fender Coronado, had a slot cut into the cover to break the closed loop conductor.
None of this "ruins" the tone. It's all subjective. And some pickups have used eddy currents as part of the tonal formula.
The only truly magnetically transparent material is non conductive, like plastic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That notion is incorrect. The issue is eddy currents. When a conductor is in the presence of a magnetic field, small swirling electrical currents form on the surface of that conductor. And any time you have a flowing electrical current, you have an accompanying magnetic field. This magnetic field opposes the field of the pickups permanent magnet.
This has the effect of dulling the high end, and flattening the resonant peak of the pickup. You can clearly hear this with regular closed covers. Depending on the material and thickness, it can be subtle or more obvious.
The T shaped cutouts on Filter'Tron pickups are there to help break up the eddy currents.
So an open top shouldn't do too much to the tone. But then you have a closed loop conductor around the coils. This can also change the tone. This is why some old DeArmond pickups, like the ones used on the Fender Coronado, had a slot cut into the cover to break the closed loop conductor.
None of this "ruins" the tone. It's all subjective. And some pickups have used eddy currents as part of the tonal formula.
The only truly magnetically transparent material is non conductive, like plastic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
Do you understand the plating process? It's not "cheap" to have chrome plated on copper. In fact, steel is plated with copper then nickel then chrome. And you're right, solder has a hard time sticking to chrome. You need quite a bit of heat, and flux also helps.
Do you understand the plating process? It's not "cheap" to have chrome plated on copper. In fact, steel is plated with copper then nickel then chrome. And you're right, solder has a hard time sticking to chrome. You need quite a bit of heat, and flux also helps.
vinnie1971
New member
Re: Questions about open humbucker cover.
I do electrolyte sacrificial abode and diode, current. But these covers were cheap - from china. £5 the pair! Brand new.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do electrolyte sacrificial abode and diode, current. But these covers were cheap - from china. £5 the pair! Brand new.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
