RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
I assume the winds/wire/mags are the same. What does using rails vs. slugs/fillisters do to the tone?
Rails versions of classic pickups?
- Thread starter RayBarbeeMusic
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RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
Are they just going for a cosmetic change then? Not sure I see the point.
freefrog
Well-known member
The JB Rails is officially described as giving "enhanced string-to-string balance". Makes sense to me: experiments done here with rail poles these last decades tended to show a more even magnetic field and response under chords...
Anecdotically, for anyone who'd want to experiment : Epi/Gibson or Guild mini-hum's have rail poles under their covers, instead of the slugs of bigger humbuckers. It's doable to swap these rails for separate bits of steel and to watch how it affects the measured magnetic field + inductance + eddy currents, and the tone accordingly.
It's also doable to Dremel the plastic in an existing coil, in order to slide a rail pole or magnet instead of the original slugs / rod magnets. But it requires to be careful, of course.
I think to have somewhere frequential tests about the tonal effect of such a mod... More later maybe. ;-)
Anecdotically, for anyone who'd want to experiment : Epi/Gibson or Guild mini-hum's have rail poles under their covers, instead of the slugs of bigger humbuckers. It's doable to swap these rails for separate bits of steel and to watch how it affects the measured magnetic field + inductance + eddy currents, and the tone accordingly.
It's also doable to Dremel the plastic in an existing coil, in order to slide a rail pole or magnet instead of the original slugs / rod magnets. But it requires to be careful, of course.
I think to have somewhere frequential tests about the tonal effect of such a mod... More later maybe. ;-)
I believe the original idea was the aggressive look and no dropouts between strings. There are lots of people that request, say, the sound of the JB, but with a more modern look.
I dig the look of the Rails- I'd love to see even old-style PAF variants like Seths or Antiquities in Rails versions. Not sure we'll get that, though.
I dig the look of the Rails- I'd love to see even old-style PAF variants like Seths or Antiquities in Rails versions. Not sure we'll get that, though.
RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
Making the pole a rail won't change how the bar magnet is charged.
RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
Raise your hand if you've ever experienced "drop outs" between the strings, even with a normal spaced pickup in a trem equiped guitar.......
*crickets*. Doesn't exist. The magnetic field is more than wide enough.
The only way to get that effect in practice is if you use two coils with opposite magnetic polarity right next to each other, say one doing the top three strings, one doing the low 3. If you put a pickup like that in a position where you can bend a G across that shift, you'll get a drop out. Hence P-Bass pickups and Leo's later Z coil design. Also see Fralin's split rails where the rails overlap.
But on a humbucker?? No. Not a real animal.
freefrog
Well-known member
No but it will convey its magnetic field differently...
And yes, I've already experienced "drop outs" between strings with normal humbuckers. But it's not a feature of these HB's with regular poles. It's a random phenomenon due to idiosyncratic magnetic variations (happens with some magnets / poles / coils, not with others IME. YMMV).
RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
No but it will convey its magnetic field differently...
And yes, I've already experienced "drop outs" between strings with normal humbuckers. But it's not a feature of these HB's with regular poles. It's a random phenomenon due to idiosyncratic magnetic variations (happens with some magnets / poles / coils, not with others IME. YMMV).
Sounds like a wiring issue.
I currently have about 600 pickups here that aren't installed. 3 digits of guitars with pickups installed. Installed pickups for thousands of people in the 40 years I've been working on guitars.
In that time, I have never, not once, ever ever ever, in the 5 digits of pickups I've dealt with, experienced a drop out between strings.
RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
Also, RE rails and "Even string balance" - no. Harder, because you can't adjust the proximity of poles under individual strings. I have 0 problems getting even string balance by adjusting pole pieces, even on pickups where I've removed some of the poles, because I adjust the pole heights and listen until it's balanced.
Harder with rails, single coils etc, because you can't adjust the pole pieces. Always a compromise.
Harder with rails, single coils etc, because you can't adjust the pole pieces. Always a compromise.
freefrog
Well-known member
Tinkering with pickups for 45 years, I've worked for several foreign pickups makers these last decades. Thousands of lab and studio tests have been done in this context. Variations of level while bending the high E strings have been noticed in a few defined cases - and solved with non typical settings of the related E / B screw poles.
It was not due to wiring issues. Gauss measurements confirmed the variations noticed.
The magnetic field over a coil with screw poles is never totally even, anyway. SK guitars has shared online some FEMM simulations mirroring our own findings here, like the 10th colored pic there: https://skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/Images/pickups/Pickup stuff/6screws.gif
In a HB, magnetism tends to be slightly stronger at the ends of each coil, under both E strings.
In some specific cases, it can cause slight variations of level in single notes, while bending the high E. It had to do with the exact physical properties of the parts involved (strings included) and how they interact.
And granted from the start, it's not a current issue. So I can imagine someone mounting thousands of pickups without ever facing this situation (or conscientizing it as such).
Regarding the "balance between strings", [see the next message. This one has been edited out to avoid useless rambling.]
FWIW (sum up of our findings, shared for the pleasure to share, bar none). YMMV.
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freefrog
Well-known member
Below an hasty botched visual comparison between three neck pickups played direct to the board, through the same 1M input and cable capacitance (370pF, out of my head) + resistance of pots (500k). Same height settings. Same strings and pick. Frequency analyzer set to stack the frequencies generated by same chords from unfretted strings to 12th fret. Vertical increments of 3dB*.
Left pic= a good vintage Gibson Patent Sticker with its not too gaussed original magnet. Excellent neck pickup, not muddy at all. But there's a narrow peak around 500-600hz.
Center pic= a modern Gibson HB, ceramic magnet. Not too gaussed either for a ceramic bar but enough to contribute to a muddy mid centric response.
Pic on the right= rails humbucker. Stronger magnetism (+200 Gauss compared to the others, if memory serves me). Flatter response of fundamental notes but also of the related harmonics.
I suppose that's what advertising characterizes as "enhanced string-to-string balance" (while it's in fact enhanced balance between frequencies).
*Describing the conditions of this test was my way to make it repeatable by anyone who'd want to redo it.
FWIW.
Left pic= a good vintage Gibson Patent Sticker with its not too gaussed original magnet. Excellent neck pickup, not muddy at all. But there's a narrow peak around 500-600hz.
Center pic= a modern Gibson HB, ceramic magnet. Not too gaussed either for a ceramic bar but enough to contribute to a muddy mid centric response.
Pic on the right= rails humbucker. Stronger magnetism (+200 Gauss compared to the others, if memory serves me). Flatter response of fundamental notes but also of the related harmonics.
I suppose that's what advertising characterizes as "enhanced string-to-string balance" (while it's in fact enhanced balance between frequencies).
*Describing the conditions of this test was my way to make it repeatable by anyone who'd want to redo it.
FWIW.
hamerfan
Well-known member
But it should level the lesser charged parts to a more uniform on the upper side of the blade.
freefrog
Well-known member
... this homogeneised magnetic field being a reason for the rails to be way less sensitive to movements of strings on an horizontal axis than on vertical axis... hence a different balance between fundamentals and harmonics compared to pickups with vertical poles. Alex Kenis shared an interesting article about that:
Guitar pickup theory #1: Blade vs pole pieces
Something different… again: GUITAR PICKUPS! I decided to take a break from my research to put up a quick blog and clear my head a bit. I wanted to investigate the 3-axis response of blade pole piec…
alexkenis.wordpress.com
RayBarbeeMusic
Active member
Not really interested in lab results other than as an intellectual curiosity. I AM interested in real world results that players can sense. Again, in the real world, never encountered any drop out between strings on any pickup. Again, the only way to get that is to put something like a Fralin split steel pole in the NECK where you could bend a G far enough to hear it, which is why he'll tell you they're for bridge only. Also, real world, humbuckers with adjustable poles can have the poles adjusted for equal string balance, EVEN WITH 3 poles removed on one coil under the bass strings. Rails, fixed rod magnets, cannot without some compromise in volume of some strings.
So if the point of the rail versions of classic pickups is just to make something that sound like the original but looks like a rails, ok, maybe there's a market there, but I've never encountered anyone who was looking for that. If it's a different wind/magnet/pole, it probably sounds as much like the original as a "little" versions.....
