Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

[IanBallard]

My Crate VC60210 is starting to sound kinda flat and ugly and it seems the preamp tubes are going microphonic like crazy. Anyway, I have a set of Elecro Harmonix EL-34's but I'm wondering about the preamp situation. I think the overdrive channel is a bit too bright and not bassy enough and gets a little too grainy and ugly at higher gain settings. What preamp tubes do the gurus here recommend that typically go well with ELX EL-34's? I've been considering Mullard re-issues or Tung-Sols, one being less gainy and the other being high-gain with Mullard-like sound quality.

Basically what I'm looking for is a Plexi-ish tone (since the VC circuit is supposed to be Marshall-like) that doesn't fuzz out and will mellow the highs and keep some thickness.

I also wonder about using different tubes in the different slots, such as a Tung-Sol in V1 and Mullards in the other three or visa versa. Is this plausible? Do people do that?

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

Hi Ian

First of all, I am not at all a tube amp guru, nor am I a tube guru, but I'm sure I can get you settlet on this one

Flat sound and microphonic issues most likely points to pre-amp tubes being worn out indeed, replacing them will most likely fix those problems.
Towards advising new pre-amp tubes: what brand of tubes do you currently have in your amp? It would be easier advising you towards new ones knowing that.

It is NO PROBLEM AT ALL to mix different pre-amp tubes in your amp, it is something I even would encourage, it offers much more tone-tailoring this way, and I bet most people's favorites in a blind test would feature different brands mixed up in the pre-amp section often. So don't let it hold you back to mix up different brands of pre-amp tubes!!

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

try EH 12ax7s for fat dirty sounds. JJs will knock off too excess top end and fatten the bass if that is what you want whereas tung sols will give you clearer top end.
However....all of these will sound way better than your broken ones!
And yeah...you can mix and match to taste with mullards or whatever...

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

For pre-amp tubes, I think the Mullard RI's will be a bit smoother, and JJ's even smoother than that. I haven't been a fan of JJ's personally, but they do work for some people, especially in brighter amps, so they may be a viable option. The great thing about current production 12AX7's is they are pretty affordable, so the best option, as Jem Ghost said above, is to try mixing and matching different brands and put them in different positions. Your amp may work great with all Mullard RI's, or it may work best with a different brand in each slot. For $50 bucks you can try quite a few different tubes. When I had my JCM 800 I liked the Groove Tubes 12AX7C's and M's the best outside of the NOS selections I had. I ran the GT's to save my NOS selection. I don't think GT makes the Mullard or "M" RI any longer, but not really sure.

Also, you can try a 12AT7 or something slightly lower gain in the PI slot and the other slots (except V1, since you want a plexi tone). They can sometimes add a lot of smoothness, clarity and articulation to an amp, and they are usually even cheaper than AX7's.

I don't know much about the ELX EL 34's, so I can't comment. My favorite EL34 is the winged =C= version. Tesla used to make them (before it became JJ/Tesla) and I "think" SED makes them now. Great tubes in Marshall style amps. If you want some tubes that sound pretty close to the NOS Mullards but at a better price, Siemens NOS EL 34's are a great choice.... $70 a tube or so I think.

For new production tubes, or NOS tubes, try talking to Mike at KCA NOS Tubes www.kcanostubes.com . He is a really helpful guy and if you tell him what your amp is, what you don't like about it and what you want, he will steer you in the right direction....and not always towards the most expensive NOS tube in stock. He'll point you to the right new production tube or a less expensive NOS if he can. He's a good resource.

FWIW, IMHO and YMMW.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I like to go Tung Sol for 12ax7s. thats just me. its a very gain-y, kind of bright tube.

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

Thanks guys! This thing has 4 12ax7's and honestly, I think they are stock since the guy I got the amp from bought it new and never did anything to it as far as I know. The speakers also sound a bit overworked since the guy was pretty brutal on this thing before I got it. So, whatever Crate was using when this amp was new (early 2000's) are what they are. These are pretty good amps and was one of the last runs of real Made in USA Crates before they were bought out.

The shop that I'm going to have service this thing is a Peavey dealer and uses only Peavey JJ tubes. I've heard the power tubes are OK but I haven't heard much good about JJ preamp tubes, so I'll probably not take the chance in spending the dough on tubes that I might hate. Now that I know I can mix/match, I'm wondering how the gain will act depending on which order I put them in? If you have "hot" Tung-Sol in the first slot and milder Mullards in the other ones, will you have an initial hot boost that smooths out as you turn the knob up (or visa-versa if you reversed that logic), or am I misunderstanding how it works?

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

That's basically how it works, but just basically. Each pre amp tube actually has two sides to it, so the tone stack can be set up a bunch of different ways and your clean channel can use one side of a tube and the drive channel can use the other side. In marshall type circuits, V1 has the most effect on your drive tone, with each subsequent tube have less of an effect on the total audible tone. I'm not a tone stack expert, so what I'll do is post a message the Jeff Seal sent to me when he modded my JCM 800 (2205), 2 channel amp. My amp had 5 pre-amp spots, so it will be somewhat different. It lists, in his modded version, what each side of each pre-amp tube did in the tone stack. This will give you an idea of what can go on, but each amp maker has their own way to make use of all the tubes have to offer.

V1a is first gain stage for clean channel. V1b is first gain stage for OD.

V2a is second gain stage for clean, V2b is second gain stage for OD.

V3a is third gain stage for OD, V3b is final gain stage for everything and is post effects loop. (driving the OD channel with the Volume control maxed actually Od's this stage quite nicely...not MV, just OD channel volume control...i'm pretty sure you already knew this. The reason..."crosstalk" between V3a and V3b actually resonates the entire tube.... not sure if Marshall actually designed it this way on purpose or not but it's quite effective)

V4 is reverb only

V5 is PI...you can use anything you want here so long as both sides are the same i.e 12Ax7, T7 or U7... tubes like the 12DW7 which basically is a 12Ax7 on the first (a) side and a 12Au7 for the second (b) side work great for preamp selection so long as you follow the layout above, but not in the PI slot.

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

That's basically how it works, but just basically. Each pre amp tube actually has two sides to it, so the tone stack can be set up a bunch of different ways and your clean channel can use one side of a tube and the drive channel can use the other side. In marshall type circuits, V1 has the most effect on your drive tone, with each subsequent tube have less of an effect on the total audible tone. I'm not a tone stack expert, so what I'll do is post a message the Jeff Seal sent to me when he modded my JCM 800 (2205), 2 channel amp. My amp had 5 pre-amp spots, so it will be somewhat different. It lists, in his modded version, what each side of each pre-amp tube did in the tone stack. This will give you an idea of what can go on, but each amp maker has their own way to make use of all the tubes have to offer.

That's another thing I didn't mention. The "clean" channel only really sounds good when the gain is the lowest point where it gets a decently loud signal, around 2 or 3. After that it's muddy and has no clarity to speak of and after about 5 on the master it doesn't get any louder. Could that be power tube issues?

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

That post by Jeff sheds some light. I have the .pdf manual to the amp, but I can't really understand the block diagram because it's pixelated and not very clear. I could safely say that replacing everything with something decent would be an improvement and since I'm a fairly novice player, trying to improve daily, I'm not going to obsess with perfect tone and I'm not even sure what I'm going after yet. But thus far y'all have pointed me in a good direction.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I've tried most of the new production tubes, and I think the Tung-Sols are far and away the best. They're fat and bright at the same time, and I had thought those two cancelled each other out. The Electro-Harmonix are good tubes also, but in my experience a little noiser than the Tung-Sols. If you want crunch, these might be the ones to buy.

The Sovtek LPS is also a very good tube. It's gainy, very, very clear, and relatively bright. A lot of people recommend this for the PI, which is probably either V3 or V4 in your amp.

Now, the JJs. If you get one, I like the long-plate better (ECC803S). But they are both kind of lousy, in my experience. I just started a thread saying as much. I feel like they're balanced up and through the mids, then their frequency response just takes a giant dump.

The highs are terrible. They're like an alien abduction--you can't tell if they really exist or not, but if they do, you can bet they're not good. I usually run my presence at about 3, but even on 6 with additional treble preamp content, it still didn't have any bite or cut.

One thing to note is that gain and "mildness" are not mutually exclusive. I've got a Mullard with both triodes rated 115 (100 is spec). It's very smooth, but it drives the amp hard. It's not grainy at all, it's not really bright, but it's got a lot of gain.

The Chinese tubes get a fairly decent rap as well, but I don't have much experience with them. I got a couple of them as stock in my amp, and they were high-gain, bright, and grainy, but they had a loose feel to them that I didn't care much for. I may try again, but I guess I'm just a fan of the Russian tubes.

I would recommend you at least get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard for V1. You can't go wrong with the LPS either. I would recommend getting at least one of each of those to experiment in V1. If you REALLY think your amp is too bright, give the JJs a shot. I'll be ready to tell you I told you so when you report back.

And feel free to change your creepy avatar too.

 

[Kam]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I've tried most of the new production tubes, and I think the Tung-Sols are far and away the best. They're fat and bright at the same time, and I had thought those two cancelled each other out. The Electro-Harmonix are good tubes also, but in my experience a little noiser than the Tung-Sols. If you want crunch, these might be the ones to buy.

The Sovtek LPS is also a very good tube. It's gainy, very, very clear, and relatively bright. A lot of people recommend this for the PI, which is probably either V3 or V4 in your amp.

Now, the JJs. If you get one, I like the long-plate better (ECC803S). But they are both kind of lousy, in my experience. I just started a thread saying as much. I feel like they're balanced up and through the mids, then their frequency response just takes a giant dump.

The highs are terrible. They're like an alien abduction--you can't tell if they really exist or not, but if they do, you can bet they're not good. I usually run my presence at about 3, but even on 6 with additional treble preamp content, it still didn't have any bite or cut.

One thing to note is that gain and "mildness" are not mutually exclusive. I've got a Mullard with both triodes rated 115 (100 is spec). It's very smooth, but it drives the amp hard. It's not grainy at all, it's not really bright, but it's got a lot of gain.

The Chinese tubes get a fairly decent rap as well, but I don't have much experience with them. I got a couple of them as stock in my amp, and they were high-gain, bright, and grainy, but they had a loose feel to them that I didn't care much for. I may try again, but I guess I'm just a fan of the Russian tubes.

I would recommend you at least get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard for V1. You can't go wrong with the LPS either. I would recommend getting at least one of each of those to experiment in V1. If you REALLY think your amp is too bright, give the JJs a shot. I'll be ready to tell you I told you so when you report back.

And feel free to change your creepy avatar too.

Dude, what amp are you enjoying the Tung-Sols in?

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I would recommend you at least get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard for V1. You can't go wrong with the LPS either. I would recommend getting at least one of each of those to experiment in V1. If you REALLY think your amp is too bright, give the JJs a shot. I'll be ready to tell you I told you so when you report back.

I think I'll do the Tung-Sol for V1 since it's for the high-gain channel and Mullards for the rest, since the clean channel uses V3, unless I'm reading the block diagram wrong.

And feel free to change your creepy avatar too.

Strangely I decided to change it before I read this. Can't imagine why it's creepy to be a fan of Joan Jett and considering all the quasi-pornographic and/or disturbing imagery used as avatars here, I'd say that was mild.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

Dude, what amp are you enjoying the Tung-Sols in?

I put one in my Blackstar, and I put two in my JCA20H. I guess these aren't quite as brightly-voiced as a JCM800 (which your AOR is based on, right?), so brighter tubes may be harsher or shriller in your amp. And I may even be misreading your question. Did you not like the sound of Tung-Sols?

I think I'll do the Tung-Sol for V1 since it's for the high-gain channel and Mullards for the rest, since the clean channel uses V3, unless I'm reading the block diagram wrong.

You'd be surprised how often theory separates from practice when rolling preamp tubes. I was convinced my amp would be way too bright with Tung-Sols in V1 and V2, but I couldn't be more wrong. I thought a JJ in V2 would give me a crunchier, lower-middier sound, but really it just took the bite out of the upper end. And maybe there's something wrong with my theory, but I thought bright + dark = not so bright. Not so in this case.

Strangely I decided to change it before I read this. Can't imagine why it's creepy to be a fan of Joan Jett and considering all the quasi-pornographic and/or disturbing imagery used as avatars here, I'd say that was mild.

Nothing personal, dude. I just really did not like that avatar. And there's no reason you should give my opinion any more weight than anyone else's. I'm cool with Zappa, for the record.

 

[Kam]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I put one in my Blackstar, and I put two in my JCA20H. I guess these aren't quite as brightly-voiced as a JCM800 (which your AOR is based on, right?), so brighter tubes may be harsher or shriller in your amp. And I may even be misreading your question. Did you not like the sound of Tung-Sols?

I was just asking out of curiosity, really. I've remained ignorant of all things tube for far too long, I think.

I think the AOR is based on the JCM800 but it seems to have a ****-tonne more low-end so brighter tubes aren't neccesarily a bad thing. At the minute I generally keep the treble knob at around 8 and the bass at around 3-4...and that's without the bass boost engaged. A little more clarity would be awesome if it still retained the whole fatness that I like so much about it.

I haven't actually tried Tung-Sols yet but from the little reading I've done they're the ones that have me most interested, to be honest. I wanna try those winged =C= things that Jeff keeps mentioning, too.

Thanks for answering, man. And cheers for that JJ thread a couple of days ago, too. That was a pretty interesting read.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack, man. :beerchug:

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I think the AOR is based on the JCM800 but it seems to have a ****-tonne more low-end so brighter tubes aren't neccesarily a bad thing. At the minute I generally keep the treble knob at around 8 and the bass at around 3-4...and that's without the bass boost engaged. A little more clarity would be awesome if it still retained the whole fatness that I like so much about it.

I think you just described how I hear the Tung-Sol. Spend the 10 euros or whatever it costs you drunkards and buy one, just for grins. Stick it in V1 and see if that changes things at all.

I haven't actually tried Tung-Sols yet but from the little reading I've done they're the ones that have me most interested, to be honest. I wanna try those winged =C= things that Jeff keeps mentioning, too.

This may be below your knowledge level, so don't be insulted if this comes off as incredibly basic, but the EL34's are in the power section, and I don't hear nearly as much change in voicing and character from the power tubes as I do from the preamp. In my limited experience, a set of reliable power tubes affects the feel of the amp more than the overall sound. I'm not talking about changing tube TYPES, just specific tubes.

The other problem with replacing power tubes is that you have to rebias, and that's just a pain. Oh, and they're much, much more expensive. You'd have to stay sober for a couple weeks or two instead of a couple days to afford a new set.

Thanks for answering, man. And cheers for that JJ thread a couple of days ago, too. That was a pretty interesting read.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack, man. :beerchug:

No sweat. As always, my opinion is worth no more than the person who wrote it, so take it at your own risk.

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I haven't actually tried Tung-Sols yet but from the little reading I've done they're the ones that have me most interested, to be honest. I wanna try those winged =C= things that Jeff keeps mentioning, too.

For the sound you described, the Tung-Sol RI is defenitely worth a try Kam, if clarity is what you are after it's one of the first choices out of current production tubes.

There is a lot of confusion going on about the Winged =C= tubes Kam, just mentioning it for your info made since you may look to buy a couple. The tubes Jeff talks about, the S.E.D.(Svetlana Electron Devices) Winged =C= tubes are actualy NOS tubes these days (they are not manufactured anymore). These were NOT made by Tesla in Slovakia, but they were manufactured in the Svetlana factory in St-Petersburg, Russia. These are the tubes that Jeff points out to be realy good, and he has to know tone, cause they are
S.E.D. stopped manufacturing tubes, and the "Svetlana" name was bought by the New Sensor group (Sovtek, EH, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Gold Lion,...) who now produces Svetlana tubes in the Reflector factory in Russia, these tubes are refered to as the S-logo tubes (cause they won't have the winged =C= logo as the S.E.D. tubes made in St-Petersburg had) and are NOT identical to the =C= logo (winged =C='s are superior to the S-logo's,although the S-logo's are not a bad tube, but winged =C= are superior to them). So keep an eye out when purchasing some Svetlana tubes .

 

[Kam]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

I think you just described how I hear the Tung-Sol. Spend the 10 euros or whatever it costs you drunkards and buy one, just for grins. Stick it in V1 and see if that changes things at all.

Totally gonna, pretty soon. I've got a Sovtek in V1 at the minute and I'm kinda digging it but I want to see what else is out there. There's still a few tech-worthy issues with it though, so I gotta save cash for a while to have it seen to. I figure I'll get a set of Power tubes first so that I can get it biased at the same time and then I can experiment with preamp tubes all I want. Tung-Sols are definitely at the top of the list.

This may be below your knowledge level, so don't be insulted if this comes off as incredibly basic, but the EL34's are in the power section, and I don't hear nearly as much change in voicing and character from the power tubes as I do from the preamp. In my limited experience, a set of reliable power tubes affects the feel of the amp more than the overall sound. I'm not talking about changing tube TYPES, just specific tubes.

The other problem with replacing power tubes is that you have to rebias, and that's just a pain. Oh, and they're much, much more expensive. You'd have to stay sober for a couple weeks or two instead of a couple days to afford a new set.

Wait, wut?

Some of that I knew, some I didn't. That's interesting to know that power tubes change the feel more than the sound. I honestly thought that they would have the biggest impact...though when I think about it now I don't know why I thought that. Probably just because they're bigger or something simple like that.

And it seems a pair of EL34s goes for about the same as I'd spend on an average night out. Looks like I have a night of mine-sweeping coming up. : private:

No sweat. As always, my opinion is worth no more than the person who wrote it, so take it at your own risk.

It's muchly much appreciated, dude. :beerchug:

I was going to apologise to Ian for hijacking the **** out of his thread but a lot of what we're talking about is probably just as interesting/helpful to him as it is to me so yeah...**** it. I ain't sorry.

 

[Kam]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

For the sound you described, the Tung-Sol RI is defenitely worth a try Kam, if clarity is what you are after it's one of the first choices out of current production tubes.

There is a lot of confusion going on about the Winged =C= tubes Kam, just mentioning it for your info made since you may look to buy a couple. The tubes Jeff talks about, the S.E.D.(Svetlana Electron Devices) Winged =C= tubes are actualy NOS tubes these days (they are not manufactured anymore). These were NOT made by Tesla in Slovakia, but they were manufactured in the Svetlana factory in St-Petersburg, Russia. These are the tubes that Jeff points out to be realy good, and he has to know tone, cause they are
S.E.D. stopped manufacturing tubes, and the "Svetlana" name was bought by the New Sensor group (Sovtek, EH, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Gold Lion,...) who now produces Svetlana tubes in the Reflector factory in Russia, these tubes are refered to as the S-logo tubes (cause they won't have the winged =C= logo as the S.E.D. tubes made in St-Petersburg had) and are NOT identical to the =C= logo (winged =C='s are superior to the S-logo's,although the S-logo's are not a bad tube, but winged =C= are superior to them). So keep an eye out when purchasing some Svetlana tubes .

Also very very useful information. Thanks, dude. :beerchug:

EDIT: Just to be sure...

This is the original Winged =C= thing and not the S-logo one you mention?

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

That's the one Jeff is talking about Kam, indeed it is a winged =C=, a true S.E.D. (made in St-Petersburg), the ones to look for that is! ;-)

And below you'll find the new production Svetlana S-logo's (made in the Reflector factory), the ones that are not bad, but NOT the same and inferior to the winged =C=:

Glad I could be of any help mate!

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Re-tube question for a n00b at the concept.

Nobody's hijacking anything. You guys are definitely helping me make my decision. Thanks to all!