Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

[thanaton]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

The Falbo[emoji768] has many years hands-on experience on this and other intricacies of pickups and other guitar gear. Complaining about insufficient number of google results on the issue could be seen as pretty much establishing that he just might have more than a pedestrian academic awareness of it.


In other words, Frank is not seen as the one that's all hat and no cattle.

If you decide what is true and false based on the notoriety and charisma of the information source, then this makes perfect sense and I agree.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

If you decide what is true and false based on the notoriety and charisma of the information source, then this makes perfect sense and I agree.

I'm not trying to play psychiatrist here, but the same is true if, as a contrarian, you've decided that an industry veteran must be selling snake oil and marketing fluff, simply because the projects are monetized. I mean, take a guy like this for example, he's admittedly driven by anger. Its a prevalent philosophy, this general mistrust of any claims that are monetized. I get it. As a pickup maker myself I often have that same skepticism toward other pickup companies when they make claims I know to be overreaching.



But I've watched guys like that over the months/years and they generally follow a certain progression. They start by saying a lot of things don't matter, only later to discover that they do, even if only down in the very small minutiae. Often times it's associated with the notion that cheaper "Asian guitar factory" pickups could be equally as good as more expensive versions from pickup specialists. Because they're all just "wire on a machine" so surely it can be duplicated. But then over time, people realize there are subtle differences (including consistency and quality control) that add value. Little things like scatter, knowing when to choose min/nom or nom/max, knowing when to reject a particular spool or batch of wire...they're all important if you're an enthusiast, and yet none of them are important if you're just not that into it. I prefer to let everyone be free to decide how seriously they want to take this stuff, and I'll just provide advice and information as I'm capable and allowed.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

I don't know why you're saying what you're saying, but this is a pickup forum, so if it has nothing to do with pickups, probably best not to say it.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

I don't know why you're saying what you're saying, but this is a pickup forum, so if it has nothing to do with pickups, probably best not to say it.

LOL you literally, just before my reply, said something non-contributory, but now you're suggesting what I said doesn't have value on a pickup forum. Forgive me, let me sum it up. The main point is that some people reject everything a company or personality says, some people accept everything blindly. Most of us are in the middle somewhere. So when a pickup company makes a claim about how scatterwinding does _____ or choosing a special wire insulation and traverse does _____, if you don't have personal experience having made pickups that way, or extensively play tested all of the variables, with intent to establish deltas, then you have to simply decide whether you're going to buy based on those claims, or not. Some people will try, some people won't. Some people though, seem to disagree with everything by default. That there's "no way" a scatterwound coil can do _____ or that it's exactly the same as if you changed the wind pattern or shortened the hookup cable, or used shorter guitar cables or different pots, etc.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

I don't know why you're saying what you're saying, but this is a pickup forum, so if it has nothing to do with pickups, probably best not to say it.

Is there a sonic/tonal deference between a CUSTOM 5 TREMBUCKER and a SCREAMIN DEMON TREMBUCKER?
If so why?
I just want to try and understand pickup characteristics better and when I look at these two it seems like they are the same/should sound the same.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

LOL you literally, just before my reply, said something non-contributory, but now you're suggesting what I said doesn't have value on a pickup forum. Forgive me, let me sum it up. The main point is that some people reject everything a company or personality says, some people accept everything blindly. Most of us are in the middle somewhere. So when a pickup company makes a claim about how scatterwinding does _____ or choosing a special wire insulation and traverse does _____, if you don't have personal experience having made pickups that way, or extensively play tested all of the variables, with intent to establish deltas, then you have to simply decide whether you're going to buy based on those claims, or not. Some people will try, some people won't. Some people though, seem to disagree with everything by default. That there's "no way" a scatterwound coil can do _____ or that it's exactly the same as if you changed the wind pattern or shortened the hookup cable, or used shorter guitar cables or different pots, etc.

We're talking about pickups, so if someone wants to determine how likely it its that any given piece of information about pickups is true or false, that relates to the matter at hand. Should people who sell pickups be trusted to provide 100% accurate information about pickups? Fair question, the answer weights heavily here. Armchair psychology though... there are other forums for that.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

We're talking about pickups, so if someone wants to determine how likely it its that any given piece of information about pickups is true or false, that relates to the matter at hand. Should people who sell pickups be trusted to provide 100% accurate information about pickups? Fair question, the answer weights heavily here. Armchair psychology though... there are other forums for that.

IF YOU INSIST ON TALKING A OUT PICKUPS THEN TALK ABOUT THEM A STOP POSTING ABOUT NOT TALKING ABOUT.PICKUPS...ANSWER MY QUESTION AND TALK ABOUT PICKUPS!
Is there a sonic/tonal deference between a CUSTOM 5 TREMBUCKER and a SCREAMIN DEMON TREMBUCKER?
If so why?
I just want to try and understand pickup characteristics better and when I look at these two it seems like they are the same/should sound the same.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

If you decide what is true and false based on the notoriety and charisma of the information source, then this makes perfect sense and I agree.

Is there a sonic/tonal deference between a CUSTOM 5 TREMBUCKER and a SCREAMIN DEMON TREMBUCKER?

yes

If so why?

a simple answer would be that if they were the same that people would have noticed a long time ago. but...

I just want to try and understand pickup characteristics better and when I look at these two it seems like they are the same/should sound the same.

firstly, and no insult meant here, but maybe starting a new thread or digging through some of the old threads on those products. this thread (started by SJ318 and not even about either of those products) was clearly going off the rails right before you posted and you'd have never gotten an answer to your question on this thread if it had gotten locked down. so...


the Custom wind (much like the JB wind and the A2Pro wind) is one that can become something else with a simple tweak. like a magnet (Custom Custom and Custom 5) or poles (Full Shred) can make it something different. but the Demon is not one of those. more than anything, it's not wound as high as the Custom models. so even if it is the Custom wind being used and just stopped at 10k, it won't sound the same.

check out the Pickup Comparison Chart ( http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/product-news/pickup-comparison-chart ). yes, the B/M/T are pretty close, but we also know those #s are kinda sorta what's agreed upon more than a big clinical scientific method with charts and graphs and meters and scopes and all that. the more firm #s to look at are the DCR and the resonant peak.

the Demon is 10k. the C5 is 14.4k. for resonant peak, the Demon is 7 KHz. the C5 is 5.4KHz. that tells people that the Demon should be more open and brighter.

maybe bookmark that Pup Comp Chart. or save it to your PC as a PDF. sure, it's not complete, but I hear there's another Duncan company website in the works... so maybe it'll be easier to find on the new site as well as being updated. we'll have to wait and see. but... check it out and look over some of the #s. maybe translate what you're seeing to what you're hearing.

and, as always, your own ears will tell you the difference. buy them both and try them both. that's what a lot of people do and have done. only your ears can tell you what something sounds like to you. people can burn away with beakers and pocket protectors and microscopes all day long. but you will only hear things the way that you do through your guitar and your rig.

 

[akio]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Is there a sonic/tonal deference between a CUSTOM 5 TREMBUCKER and a SCREAMIN DEMON TREMBUCKER?
If so why?
I just want to try and understand pickup characteristics better and when I look at these two it seems like they are the same/should sound the same.

Well, first off, they don't sound the same at all, sound samples for each pickup on the Duncan website demonstrate that. To my ear, the Demon seems airier vs the beef of the Custom.

As for why, let's see, double screw coils (one filled with hex screws) and an 11K wind and an alnico 5 magnet in the Demon, versus a 15K wind and standard slugs/screws also with an A5 in the Custom. That's not even getting into if the wire is the same or not. These two pickups have little in common but the magnet.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Well, first off, they don't sound the same at all, sound samples for each pickup on the Duncan website demonstrate that. To my ear, the Demon seems airier vs the beef of the Custom.

As for why, let's see, double screw coils (one filled with hex screws) and an 11K wind and an alnico 5 magnet in the Demon, versus a 15K wind and standard slugs/screws also with an A5 in the Custom. That's not even getting into if the wire is the same or not. These two pickups have little in common but the magnet.

Thank you, that is what I hear too. It is a very pronounced difference between the two pickups. So it seems that screw vs slug and DCR can be significant indicators in what a pickup will sound like. And there it is right on the product page for anyone to see.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

There are also some common knowledge factors that have been shared in the past. For example, if you just visually examine a Screamin Demon you see that the wire is copper colored. So you can assume it's poly coated wire, just like the A2Pro & Jazz, as well as the Custom family. Or at least that it's NOT the purplish brown plain enamel wire. Next, you look at the coils. They are not as full as a Custom, and not as full as a Jazz neck or bridge. So if we know that ~7/8k humbuckers are usually wound with 42 gauge wire, and ~14k humbuckers are usually wound with 43 gauge wire, then we can safely assume that with the Screamin Demon reading ~10k, and being smaller in girth, it can't be 42 gauge.

At this point, it's very easy to assume that the Demon represents an underwound Custom coil, therefore an underwound Custom 5 or Full Shred. Not an overwound Jazz. To my ears, long before I ever went to work for Seymour Duncan, that's what I always thought it sounded like.

However, what this does NOT confirm, is whether the insulation thickness is the same between any of those pickups I mentioned, whether the turn count per layer is the same, the machine is set up the same, whether the desired tension is the same...and without knowing these things, you don't really have a full grasp of the technical differences between the two pickups. That said, sure though you can't assume all it's safe to assume that at least most of the difference between the Full Shred or Custom 5 and the Demon is the amount of wire that's on the bobbin, and the different pole piece arrangements. And if you want to hear the difference between the coils isolated, you can make a Full Shred and a Demon have the same pole types between the two.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Holy s***! I think I understood about 10% of what you said.
I think all the pickup companies should show picture of the pickup, give a consistent sound sample, provide resonant peak, q factor and DCR. That information should give a good general idea of the PICKUPS tone. But I don't know hardly anything about this stuff. I just recently started experimenting with pickups up till now I just depended on a good guitar and a good amp and enough volume to get.my point.across.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

I think all the pickup companies should show picture of the pickup, give a consistent sound sample, provide resonant peak, q factor and DCR. That information should give a good general idea of the PICKUPS tone.

All of this is pointless unless a common standard of measuring pertinent data is agreed upon, then certified by an independent institute constituted with the task at hand, and all existing p'up vendors accept to adopt those standards and are willing to invest in the acquisition and maintenance of the necessary equipment and hire the necessary personnel with certified credentials to properly run the tests and the outcome of those.

Do you see any of this happening anytime soon? I'd go out on a limb and say "not in my lifetime".

Holy s***! I think I understood about 10% of what you said. But I don't know hardly anything about this stuff.

Ok, a small part of the info was given to you, and your own reaction sums it up: you want to know, but then you don't wanna know anymore because is too much to handle.

Your Honor, I rest my case!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Holy s***! I think I understood about 10% of what you said.
I think all the pickup companies should show picture of the pickup, give a consistent sound sample, provide resonant peak, q factor and DCR. That information should give a good general idea of the PICKUPS tone. But I don't know hardly anything about this stuff. I just recently started experimenting with pickups up till now I just depended on a good guitar and a good amp and enough volume to get.my point.across.

Most people wouldn't know how a resonant peak, inductance or anything else related to that worked in the real world.

And even then all of these don't give you response or feel.

So it still becomes a case of 'you need to try something to really see'

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Holy s***! I think I understood about 10% of what you said.
I think all the pickup companies should show picture of the pickup, give a consistent sound sample, provide resonant peak, q factor and DCR. That information should give a good general idea of the PICKUPS tone. But I don't know hardly anything about this stuff. I just recently started experimenting with pickups up till now I just depended on a good guitar and a good amp and enough volume to get.my point.across.

This is like expecting an internet chart to tell you if the seats in a car you want to buy will be comfortable for your butt. No amount of theory, science or charts are going to help you come close to understanding whether that is true or not, other than going down to the dealer and parking your rear in the actual seat.

 

[esandes]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

I'd say a tight wind is ideal for avoiding bad feedback when using unpotted pickups.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Loose wind sound like a bad thing. I don't see how that could not end up in feedback.

"Scattering", randomly packing the wire laterally, should obviously modify how capacitance and inductance come out relative to resistance. That should be a major change, especially to capacitance, directly influencing the frequency of the resonance peak.

However, I bet that the physical volume of scattering rises up quite a bit. You might run into problems either with fitting enough wire on the bobbin, or with changing electrical properties because of the less dense packing. In my mind a densely packed coil packs the most punch.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

The bareknucklepickup FAQ is very misleading. It says that the "Scatterwinding by hand can be time consuming but it has many advantages over conventional machine winding", but all of the "many" advantages boil down to one: reduced capacitance.

They say the reduced capacitance increases the resonance peak, making the response flatter... but that's what ALL low output pickups do. That's what makes an SSL-1 and SSL-1 and not an SSL-5. Does an SSL-1 have "far superior sound", to borrow bare knuckle's own words? No, this technical aspect of a pickup is purely a matter of preference.

You misunderstood the point. Using same wire, putting more winds raises all of capacitance, inductance and resistance.

If some winding method raises or lower only one of those values (and not the others) then you create a sound that you could not have created just using a different number of winds.

It is good to see confirmation that somebody measured scatter wind as lowering capacitance. Myself I would still ask whether this is simply the result of the larger physical volume of the coil, which means a similar effect could have been created by using a wire of the same copper diameter, but with thicker insulation.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Another question here is - what kind of sound change would you get if the bobbin has a bit more circumference? That means the first winds of the coil are a bit bigger/longer/morewire.

If the entire coil starts out and ends up with a bit more physical volume, how do the base electrical properties change? (capacitance and inductance, we assume same amount of wire used, so resistance is same). That affects the frequency of the resonance peak.

In addition, are there mechanical effects?

And how does the different placement of the coil as a whole inside the 3D magnetic field generated by the bar magnet, shaped by the polepieces, affect the sound?

The latter is a huge can of worms. And any answer to it would also affect the scatterwound versus non-random wind answers (using standard bobbins).

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

What if the bobbin was conical shaped instead of cylindrical? Does the depth of the wind across the bobbin have an affect on the pickups performance? A similar question would be, what if the bobbin instead of being cylindrical was was randomly shaped with the cylinder varying in circumstances randomly?