set neck vs bolt-in neck

[darnright]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Thanks guys I appreciate all the input. I'm not planning to glue any bolt-on necks in. I just wanted some opinions. All my life I have heard that bolt necks will never sound good. I personally have disproved this many times, but still wanted to hear you guys discuss it. I learn so much on here. I thank each and every one of you. No one ever disses me for dumb questions and every question I ask is discussed and answered. I really appreciate it.

Thanks.

-dave

 

[RavenMadd]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

its all subjective .....

 

[apj]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

I personally like bolt on necks purely because I don't like the feel of a painted neck, if only they made more LP's with unfinished necks

 

[blueman335]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Thanks guys I appreciate all the input. I'm not planning to glue any bolt-on necks in. I just wanted some opinions. All my life I have heard that bolt necks will never sound good. I personally have disproved this many times, but still wanted to hear you guys discuss it. I learn so much on here.

Obviously great things have been done with both, and what you play is a matter of preference. A lot of guys have both.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

I personally like bolt on necks purely because I don't like the feel of a painted neck, if only they made more LP's with unfinished necks

Almost all of my guitars have unfinished necks or oiled necks, sandpaper is your friend :beerchug:

 

[uOpt]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

If you are really going for it the bolt on neck guitar will of course sound better.

Because you can keep buying Strats, exchanging necks and bodies, always keeping the better neck and better body. That way you will advance much quicker than with a set neck guitar when you can only flip the whole guitar.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

In a properly constructed bolt-on, you have zero foreign material in the neck pocket, with the possible exception of a small shim. No luthier in his right mind paints neck pockets. Period.

Maybe my error is NOT assuming that every guitar people talk about is a 50$ POS

Um, ever look at the bottom of a Fender neck where it is bolted onto the body?

Maybe your error is assuming that $5000 Intergalactic Quasar Masters and Pharaoh Tut Jr's with serial numbers in the negatives are the only instruments that matter :scratchch :naughty:

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Obviously great things have been done with both, and what you play is a matter of preference. A lot of guys have both.

BINGO!!! :friday:

My MIM Tele is an excellent example of a cheap bolt neck guitar that has an excellent neck pocket and neck/body connection and it sustains for days. Mybe it's the 3 brass saddle trad bridge... which was another 15 bucks :eyecrazy:

 

[Zerberus]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Um, ever look at the bottom of a Fender neck where it is bolted onto the body?

Yes, and I don´t consider a Fender slapped together from random prefabricated parts with a 1mm gap around the neck pocket to be a quality guitar either. Fender was designed from the get go to be the ak47 of guitars: cheap and fast to manufacture with acceptable results (note the word "acceptable", a word that when translated from engineer to luthier means substandard but playable). There was never the intent of giving people a high quality instrument, but mass producing as many as possible so as to get as much out of the 50s electric instrument craze as possible.

The only reason some Fenders are outstanding guitars is that some time in the last 50 years Fender started employing actual luthiers. Had they continued the way they had in the 60s, today they´d be on par with Squiers and SX at best.

Don´t get me wrong, some production Fenders are magical guitars, just like some 50$ copies are... but this isn´t due to high quality standrads but just flat out LUCK.

Maybe your error is assuming that $5000 Intergalactic Quasar Masters and Pharaoh Tut Jr's with serial numbers in the negatives are the only instruments that matter :scratchch :naughty:

If you commit murder, is it suddenly legal if nobody sees it?

In other words, Just because big companies cut corners since Joe Average doesn´t care or know better doesn´t mean it´s the proper way to build an instrument. I can´t believe how much consumer culture has brainwashed some people, so far that apparently "use once and destroy" is one step under the Hope Diamond...

There are literally thousands of smaller companies and luthiers that will properly construct you an outstanding guitar for the same price as a cookie cutter Fender. Fender just gets the business because they´re a household name and therefore have better resale.

That said, your implication that I feel that only high quality instruments > 5k matter is wholly false. There are millions of properly constructed guitars out there for significantly less, crripes none of my instruments cost anywhere near that amount. But you´re not going to get them for 2-300 dollars brand new. A quality instrument for ANY OTHER MUSICIAN will cost multiple thosand dollars and is an investment for life. Guitarists and bassists have merely gotten spoiled because "rockstar" is a wonderful dream that almost everyone has and companies are cashing on in that with cheap guitars for people that never really wanted to play anyway.

Without MTV, guitars would likely cost 2.5k or more, and be outstanding, while anything under 1k would be an absolute POS. Just like it is for every other musician

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Quality of construction is important in a neck joint. Type of construction isn't - or at lesat is far, far less important.

 

[blueman335]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Yes, and I don´t consider a Fender slapped together from random prefabricated parts with a 1mm gap around the neck pocket to be a quality guitar either. Fender was designed from the get go to be the ak47 of guitars: cheap and fast to manufacture with acceptable results (note the word "acceptable", a word that when translated from engineer to luthier means substandard but playable). There was never the intent of giving people a high quality instrument, but mass producing as many as possible so as to get as much out of the 50s electric instrument craze as possible.

The only reason some Fenders are outstanding guitars is that some time in the last 50 years Fender started employing actual luthiers. Had they continued the way they had in the 60s, today they´d be on par with Squiers and SX at best.

A quality instrument for ANY OTHER MUSICIAN will cost multiple thosand dollars and is an investment for life. Guitarists and bassists have merely gotten spoiled because "rockstar" is a wonderful dream that almost everyone has and companies are cashing on in that with cheap guitars for people that never really wanted to play anyway.

I must say, I like your comments about Fender. All is forgiven about 'the A8 incident.' No matter how true your above observations are, you realize that you run the risk of getting a letter bomb delivered to your home (a few of those Fender boys are a bit unstable).

As far as other musicians spending thousands on their instruments, this isn't apples & apples. They spend so much because it's usually their career, and they're probably not building a collection of them either. Their instruments aren't made in anywhere near the quantity of electric guitars & basses, which is a significant factor in the reduction of unit costs and prices. The average teenage boy does not want a cello or tuba; he would consider that a form of punishment. There is a huge international network created to produce millions of guitars, many for teenagers, and there are bulk purchases & efficiencies that are not possible with other instruments. Production machinery & fixed costs are spread out over far more units.

Another thing to factor in, which we often forget, is that the cost of an electric guitar or bass also has to include amplification. The instrument is only part of the equation. If you have a $500 guitar & $500 amp, to produce any worthwhile sound, you really have a $1,000 instrument.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Yes, and I don´t consider a Fender slapped together from random prefabricated parts with a 1mm gap around the neck pocket to be a quality guitar either. Fender was designed from the get go to be the ak47 of guitars: cheap and fast to manufacture with acceptable results (note the word "acceptable", a word that when translated from engineer to luthier means substandard but playable). There was never the intent of giving people a high quality instrument, but mass producing as many as possible so as to get as much out of the 50s electric instrument craze as possible.

The only reason some Fenders are outstanding guitars is that some time in the last 50 years Fender started employing actual luthiers. Had they continued the way they had in the 60s, today they´d be on par with Squiers and SX at best.

Don´t get me wrong, some production Fenders are magical guitars, just like some 50$ copies are... but this isn´t due to high quality standrads but just flat out LUCK.



If you commit murder, is it suddenly legal if nobody sees it?

In other words, Just because big companies cut corners since Joe Average doesn´t care or know better doesn´t mean it´s the proper way to build an instrument. I can´t believe how much consumer culture has brainwashed some people, so far that apparently "use once and destroy" is one step under the Hope Diamond...

There are literally thousands of smaller companies and luthiers that will properly construct you an outstanding guitar for the same price as a cookie cutter Fender. Fender just gets the business because they´re a household name and therefore have better resale.

That said, your implication that I feel that only high quality instruments > 5k matter is wholly false. There are millions of properly constructed guitars out there for significantly less, crripes none of my instruments cost anywhere near that amount. But you´re not going to get them for 2-300 dollars brand new. A quality instrument for ANY OTHER MUSICIAN will cost multiple thosand dollars and is an investment for life. Guitarists and bassists have merely gotten spoiled because "rockstar" is a wonderful dream that almost everyone has and companies are cashing on in that with cheap guitars for people that never really wanted to play anyway.

Without MTV, guitars would likely cost 2.5k or more, and be outstanding, while anything under 1k would be an absolute POS. Just like it is for every other musician

Geeze, you must need oxygen and use Sherpas for roadies so far up on that high horse. :eyecrazy::eyecrazy:

I guess those ignorant talentless schmucks that tried to make music with regular Fenders just got lucky.

You're not addressing the issue in general or my post specifically with your rant. You said "In a properly constructed bolt-on, you have zero foreign material in the neck pocket, with the possible exception of a small shim. No luthier in his right mind paints neck pockets. Period." I pointed out that Fenders generally have finish and labeling on the underside of the neck where it touches the body in the neck pocket. You threw in a Straw Man with your comment about poorly manufactured guitars.

No, you just went too far with your sweeping generalization about what constitutes a "properly constructed" guitar. And since I kinda dislike grandiose, pretentious comments that seem to indicate an inflated view of one's own opinion I pointed out a flaw in your statement.

Where can I get luthier to make me a "properly made" Tele for the 450 bucks I have in my MIM including the vintage bridge, compensated brass saddles and Custom Shop Nocaster pups? I'd sure like to know.

I don't pretend to know so much about "proper" Guitar construction. It just seems to me that a lot of people forget that most of the great music made with electric guitars were done with basically production run mass produced instruments.

It's a poor workman that blames his tools - and I'm not saying that applies to you or anyone in particular. But guitar snobbery misses the point of making music and substitutes the instrument itself as art. That has its place but it is only tangentially related to making music. Maybe Eric Johnson is right and removing the paint from the top of the trem block on a Strat matters. I doubt it.

Back to the neck attachment question. My Tele out sustains my SG (Special Faded with a set of Duncan '59s) even though the former is bolt on and the latter is set neck. Different weights, woods, everything it all adds up. But, turn up the volume just a little and the SG is so "alive" I can get infinite sustain via feedback more easily.

Be well, and I mean no offense. I just thought your "properly made" comment was silly. Maybe too much coffee for me...

 

[Zerberus]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Another thing to factor in, which we often forget, is that the cost of an electric guitar or bass also has to include amplification. The instrument is only part of the equation. If you have a $500 guitar & $500 amp, to produce any worthwhile sound, you really have a $1,000 instrument.

Good point, and one I admittedly often overlook...:beerchug:

...
As far as other musicians spending thousands on their instruments, this isn't apples & apples. They spend so much because it's usually their career, and they're probably not building a collection of them either. Their instruments aren't made in anywhere near the quantity of electric guitars & basses, which is a significant factor in the reduction of unit costs and prices. The average teenage boy does not want a cello or tuba; he would consider that a form of punishment. There is a huge international network created to produce millions of guitars, many for teenagers, and there are bulk purchases & efficiencies that are not possible with other instruments. Production machinery & fixed costs are spread out over far more units. ....

Yes and no.... IF Big Band and orchestra music had hjad a resurgence a the proper time, those would be today´s rockstars, and you´d be able to get a cello for 50 bucks.... part of the reason that electric guitars are so cheap is of course the mass demand with no real need for them to be stellar, something that LF recognized in the early 50`s. Through the way that history has gone, the electric guitar has kind of become synonymous with a fast paced lifestyle....

I guess what I`m getting it is that I think our arguments here go hand in hand...

Geeze, you must need oxygen and use Sherpas for roadies so far up on that high horse. :eyecrazy::eyecrazy:

Do you want a discussion or do you prefer to make fruitless comments? (I´m the same way, don´t take me too seriously on this) :laugh2:

I guess those ignorant talentless schmucks that tried to make music with regular Fenders just got lucky.

WTF does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

You're not addressing the issue in general or my post specifically with your rant.... I pointed out that Fenders generally have finish and labeling on the underside of the neck where it touches the body in the neck pocket. You threw in a Straw Man with your comment about poorly manufactured guitars.

I´m sorry, I assumed that no finish in the neck pocket logically includes that portion of the neck, and as a result assumed that you were getting at what I was. I most certainly did not mean to dodge your question, why should I?

No, you just went too far with your sweeping generalization about what constitutes a "properly constructed" guitar. And since I kinda dislike grandiose, pretentious comments that seem to indicate an inflated view of one's own opinion I pointed out a flaw in your statement.

I´m a professionally trained luthier with >15 years of experience that has also run a successful musical instrument retail establisment specializing in guitars, and I also have a few years of experience as a touring and recoirding musician. With all due respect, whether or not your anyone else finds my views or statements inflated doesn´t matter to me one bit, because I can back each and every one of them up with more experience than most guitarists will ever gather, about almost every possible aspect of the guitar. I dedicated my life to the instrument and more importantly it´s construction when I was 15.

Where can I get luthier to make me a "properly made" Tele for the 450 bucks I have in my MIM including the vintage bridge, compensated brass saddles and Custom Shop Nocaster pups? I'd sure like to know.

Nowhere in the western world, you seem to be assuming that barely double of my quoted number is enough. I should have said that a low cost guitar built by a trained luthier will generally start at approximately 1000$US so as not to confuse you.

With 450 bucks you can get a guitar that was randomly slapped together by a semi-skilled worker using parts made with tolerances high enough to guarantee compatibility. If you´re lucky, fit and finish will be there. If you´re not, they won´t. They weren´t matched for tonal effect becasue this requires an experienced worker with actual training. Trained workers cost more, and Joe Average won´t ever know anyway, so why invest?

I don't pretend to know so much about "proper" Guitar construction. It just seems to me that a lot of people forget that most of the great music made with electric guitars were done with basically production run mass produced instruments.

I fail to see the logical correlation between pointing out flaws in instrument´s manufacture and denouncing the music created by people using them. :eek13:

...

 

[Zerberus]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

...

It's a poor workman that blames his tools

I agree 100%. But nobody here is doing that as far as I can tell...

- and I'm not saying that applies to you or anyone in particular. But guitar snobbery misses the point of making music and substitutes the instrument itself as art. That has its place but it is only tangentially related to making music. Maybe Eric Johnson is right and removing the paint from the top of the trem block on a Strat matters. I doubt it.

On a forum filled with people that love guitars, every aspect of them, it is to be expected that every aspect of the guitar will be scrutinized. But none of that makes anyone here a better or worse musician, nor does it make any music made with any of the instruments discussed less valid, I assumed that as obvious.

But the more important fact is that this here is the forum of an aftermarket pickup manufacturer. That means that people that come here will, as a general tendency, be looking to get the best possible tone. To get the best possible tone, one must first understand exactly how minute a difference can make a huge detail. It starts at different pickups, changing hardware, fiddling with the setup, and ends somewhere around removing small patches of paint for tonal effect like EJ. Many of us have seen the most mind boggling things that nobody would have ever expected make or break a guitar´s tone and playability. Would you think that adding a brass insert into the leg of a Dimebucker makes it sound noticably different, much looser bass? Neither did we, but there´s recorded proof out there on someone´s soundclick.

The point is, the is probably the last place to post comething about a guitar and expect not have it come under scrutiny by thousands. Some of us are just more vocal about our opinions and views.

Back to the neck attachment question. My Tele out sustains my SG (Special Faded with a set of Duncan '59s) even though the former is bolt on and the latter is set neck. Different weights, woods, everything it all adds up. But, turn up the volume just a little and the SG is so "alive" I can get infinite sustain via feedback more easily.

That´s kind of the point we´re getting at very often, most comparisons are apples and oranges and don´t take into account literally dozens of details that have great effects. Of the most important being, as you said, they´re different piieces of wood

Be well, and I mean no offense. I just thought your "properly made" comment was silly. Maybe too much coffee for me...

None taken.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Why do people compare an 8lb mahogany Les Paul and a 4lb alder Strat and instantly assume the tuneomatic is the reason the LP has more sustain? Does no one understand that mass = sustain?

It's the same argument about a Floyd killing sustain because you have this gaping hole in the wood. Nevermind the gaping hole is filled with a chunk of metal that weighs twice as much as the wood that was removed.


At Summer NAMM 08 there was some guy hawking these huge-ass frets he invented. They're like normal frets on top but they're cut out of a 1/4" wide block of metal, and your fretboard has to be raped to accept them.
His "demo artist" was shredding on a Les Paul through a Mesa Triple Rec with the gain dimed and he's going "see? more sustain!"
Now, first, an 8lb guitar is going to have a fair amount of natural sustain when amplified.
Second, a high-gain amp set for maximum drive/distortions on 11 is going to allow notes to sustain.
Third, if you're doing 128th note scalar patterns and arpeggios at Yngwie speed, you have absolutely no need for sustain because you're not letting notes sustain.


And the final nail in the coffin of "neckthrough = better" - Arbor made tons and tons of guitars and basses in the 80s that were neckthrough. I don't see too many people fighting over them on Ebay.


And neckthrough is NOT one continuous piece of wood from nut to bridge. It's generally 3 pieces - the headstock (if using a Spanish Luthier's neckjoint as most do, the headstock includes the nut and possibly attaches to the rest of the neck at the 2nd or 3rd fret), the main part of the neck (which, again, may only start at the 2nd or 3rd fret, and stops at or near the 3rd-to-last fret), and the opposing-grain-cut body tenon, which the body wings are glued onto. The bridge is also usually attached to the body wings, not the tenon, be it a Floyd or TOM.

One cannot cry foul at a neck being glued into a body like a Les Paul and ignore the fact their precious "1 piece" is actually at least 5 pieces glued together.

 

[357mag]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

The only reason some Fenders are outstanding guitars is that some time in the last 50 years Fender started employing actual luthiers. Had they continued the way they had in the 60s, today they´d be on par with Squiers and SX at best.

Don´t get me wrong, some production Fenders are magical guitars, just like some 50$ copies are... but this isn´t due to high quality standrads but just flat out LUCK.

Jesus ****ing Christ man. Where is the B.S. flag? I just picked up a Mexican Strat that is one of the best Strats I've ever had. Excellent neck finish. No flaws. Excellent paint on the body. No flaws. Excellent neck to body fit. No flaws. Strings line up perfectly on fretboard. No flaws. Resonates well too. I had a few upgrades done to it but nothing that I wouldn't also have done to an American. It's now my number one guitar and my American sits in it's case. The quality coming out of the Ensenada factory has improved. I'll put it up against anything you have there buddy.

 

[dr. ad]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

pcorn:

 

[El CHupacabra]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

^I prefer the old Avatar to this one. This one just looks... evil.

And Zerb, no need to hate on Fender. Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, JImme & Stevie Ray, Robert Cray, Buddy Guy, Sonny Landreth, Hendrix and every satisfied Fender customer (myself included) can't all be luck.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

Does no one understand that mass = sustain?

I don't think that's true at all.

Good coupling = sustain. Some of the carbon fibre guitars (such as the MEs) are incredibly light but have huge sustain, for instance. Again the quality of the neck joint, in particular, is what makes the biggest difference. Both the guitars I've built have been well under LP weights - lighter than some strats too - but have huge (unamplified) sustain.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: set neck vs bolt-in neck

....
And Zerb, no need to hate on Fender.

*edit*
Ehm, WHA?
*/edit*

I have NEVER hated Fender, EVER. Stating true and verifiable facts about the way something SHOULD be done and pointing out that the biggest company in the world just doesn´t do it that way is NOT hate. It´s reality.

Just becasue people don´t want to see the elephant in the room doesn´t make him go away

...Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, JImme & Stevie Ray, Robert Cray, Buddy Guy, Sonny Landreth, Hendrix and every satisfied Fender customer (myself included) can't all be luck.

I´ve already commented on both the total lack of correlation and the complete irrelevance of such statements. I don´t plan to do so again.

But I´ll humor you guys and put on a pair of your gloves instead of mine... let`s see... 300 thousand instruments a year, overall millions upon millions of instruments around from the US factory alone, and a few dozen pros and a few thousand casual players .....so if we take, say, VERY low 1 million guitars and divide that by, och let´s be charitable 100000 thousand satisfied customers... Well, we still only get a ratio of 1 good guitar for every 10 they make.

Christ´s sake, I get better odds flipping a coin, so I´d definitely refer to that as luck.

See guys, I can be offtopic and skew the arguments by providing useless data with no correlation to the discussion, too. I just find it ridiculous and annoying because it adds nothing. So I usually don´t stoop to it.

Jesus ****ing Christ man. Where is the B.S. flag? I just picked up a Mexican Strat that is one of the best Strats I've ever had. Excellent neck finish. No flaws. Excellent paint on the body. No flaws. Excellent neck to body fit. No flaws. Strings line up perfectly on fretboard. No flaws. Resonates well too. I had a few upgrades done to it but nothing that I wouldn't also have done to an American. It's now my number one guitar and my American sits in it's case. The quality coming out of the Ensenada factory has improved. I'll put it up against anything you have there buddy.

Show me ONE picture of a neck being matched or hand fit to a body, or one picture of any process that separates a properly constructed instrument from random parts on ANY non Custom Fender Production line regardless of location and I´ll be willing to reconsider my opinions. Until then all you are doing is proving my arguments to be fully valid.

I ´ll glady take that challenge so that you can see what real quality is... Remember, I did not at ANY POINT IN TIME criticize Fender´s tone, playability, business model, or success, mereý the way the parts are haphazardly matched and often incorrectly prepared. Bottom line: all I really have to do is unscrew the neck from one of my guitars which I know for a fact has an unpainted neck and pocket and you´re already sunk. I also know for a fact I can pick up any of my bolt ons by the neck without screws because the fit and finish are proper. I´d say maybe 1 in 50 strats can do that off the rack, and if you happen to be the lucky guy that got one then good for you. But effectively your argument means nothing with respect to the post you´re trying to detract from, it´s a smoke-and-mirrors move based on single instrument when we´re talking about sample sizes in the thousands.

Yeah, one grain of sand on a beach might be darker. And, the point that´s making is supposed to be what??

Sorry guys, but it´s obvious that those now entering the discussion are not interested in actually reading anything typed, but merely repeating the same old arguments that never held water in the first place and discrediting people by putting asinine statements into their mouths having nothing whatsoever to do with their true motives or beliefs. By that measure, it´s getting almost as stupid as the religious discussions we used to delete daily... And I didn´t post in most of those, either.

I´m out.