Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

[Les PaulBearer]

So in 2007 I bought a Japanese Tokai LS-150F as a stage spare. I had always played Fenders, but after being offered a sweet deal on a Gibson 336, which I couldn't refuse, I started playing the thing all the time and "needed" another hum-bucking friend for it. I ordered the LS-150F without playing it (a bit silly! It was pretty in the pics though) but it turned out ok and after a quick set up was more than acceptable. In fact it played beautifully but always sounded a little lame plugged in - no matter, it was a spare. The guitar, wood wise, is a pretty faithful '59 copy, the neck and body measure pretty identically to a '59 and it has an excellent nitro finish. A few moths ago I became a little obsessed with playing it unplugged but was still a bit let down by it's plugged in sound. I took the control cavity cover off for the first time and after a bit of study worked out that it was probably spec'd and wired the same as a mid 2000s Standard Les Paul (Orange Drops and CTS pots) with potted, possibly ceramic, low output 'buckers.

I took the decision to do right by the craftsmanship they put into the wood and ordered some SD Seth Lovers, CTS vintage taper pots and Luxe Bumblebee caps. Hey presto! Sounds magic - weirdly, I'm sure it actually sounds even better unplugged too (could be the clean up of the wiring and the lighter unpotted p'ups? Could be psychosomatic?) - but it now responds totally differently to my amps. Wide open, bigger, fatter more driven but also more subtle and articulate in response to playing. Sounds older, much more bluesy, less compressed.

Recommend this to any Les Paul type guitar owner who is disappointed with the plugged in sound but loves the feel of the axe in question.

Tried to emulate the look of the '59 wiring from photos from google, first pic is original wiring, second pic new wiring and then the finished article -

 

[Mincer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

Thanks for the review- and killer guitar!

 

[Les PaulBearer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

The top is pretty crazy on this one, I think you can see why I took a chance ordering without playing, definitely sounds as good as it looks now. The Seth Lovers were a bargain, they just sound great - night and day compared with the originals - really addictive, natural and engaging. Not sure if the Bumblebees are strictly necessary but the tone controls really work better - or at least more intuitively. Any well thought of PIO caps (haven't tried any of the Russians but the design is supposed to be similar) would probably have done the job but I would definitely recommend going for the CTS vintage taper pots if your aiming for a 50s feel. SD done did it! I was sad every time I put this down today, I almost missed a meeting earlier because I was enjoying myself so much. I probably don't need to say it here but if anyone is thinking of this type of mod they should just go for it. This was fun and simple and I'm feeling pretty pleased with myself right now.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

So how do you like the pot interaction? Are you among the group that finds it useful or the one that finds it hindering, or the other 95% that can't tell the difference because they are always on 10 anyway?

 

[Les PaulBearer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

Ha! Come on "always on 10" brigade, they turn for a reason! I try not to get to 10 on the volume unless I'm really going for it but the tones today have been around 3 for neck and 6 for bridge. Yeah, that's right, they definitely interact more with the wiring this way round. I'm still playing but I think that whole Joe Bonamassa thing has probably been confusing people with what I guess is now standard wiring, 'cause you can get a lot more out of this older style of wiring and amp interaction. I hardly touched my OD pedal (pedals I guess, I have a TS808 and a hardwired weird version of the Timmy in line on my board) today and turned the preamp volume up to about 8 on my amp instead. Found myself playing with the knobs a lot more than usual - I hadn't really thought about it until you said that. This is where the gear starts inspiring you to do more and think outside of your normal box, I guess the guitar's been playing me a little today.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

Yeah, I myself prefer modern wiring, but a Les Paul
with 50s wiring, vintage taper pots, and PAFs creates the perfect guitar for putting yourself into the archetypal rock god mindset. The one big plus about 50s wiring is if you EQ your amp to work with all the controls on your guitar at 5, you can use the volume control as gain and your tone control as another more subtle gain control with a top end boost. IMHO, these are the conditions that must be met for 50s wiring to be useful.

And plus, I hear chicks dig a guy who can work with 50s wiring.

 

[Les PaulBearer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

I certainly wouldn't knock modern wiring but this 50s scheme seems to allow you to effect the amps gain and fatness to a greater degree when playing with the volume and tone pots. In the past with this guitar I just set up 2 different sounds and went between them as necessary (I ignore middle position, is that cruel?), I really am impressed with the new pickups and wiring, it's not a subtle change at all. The bridge pickup is lovely, very clear leady tone but still chunky - bell like with just a little honk, the neck is really amazing though, really emotional sounding and expressive, full of character. I've already got more out of playing with the guitar controls so I guess that will continue. Everything on 5 and then go from a nice usable tone from the amp, gain higher than usual, works really well as a starting point (go from there to 10 on either volume and you are screaming), thanks for that suggestion, I think I will continue doing that now so it forces me to do a bit more with the controls, anything to keep me from getting lazy. I'm sounding like a bit of an evangelist for this but I really think a lot of people who are playing rock on a Les Paul would be blown away by a similar mod - feels totally right on this guitar.

I'll try to confirm the "chicks dig" status of this, I'll ask my wife but I'm fully expecting her to raise an eyebrow and walk away shaking her head.

 

[Studioplayer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

Thanks for posting this interesting thread. I have a 2000 Classic that I put Seths in three years ago. Before that I had Orange drop caps installed. I prefer these pickups and agree with your thoughts re: Seths. I have the stock Gibson pots and modern wiring and I've tried setting volumes at 5 and e.q.ing the amp, but I get that high gain buzz going on which I don't like. My "compromise" is to have volumes at about 7 ish', e.q. my amp and go from that point. My amp of choice currently is an Orange Dark Terror set with less gain than most owners' choose to set their's. I'm not talking Metal or real high-gain, but the having the ability to roll my volumes up for a edgy gain the some overtones that chime; and to roll down from +-7 to a cleaner and still bright sound. I've learned that Seths accommodate this goal more so than the SD '59 set or before that, the stock Gibby ceramics.

I like the Orange style of gain, but Imwere playing Metal, I think I'd resort to using a pedal or boost designed for that.


Studioplayer

 

[Les PaulBearer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

None of my amps are high gain so I can't see if the change of wiring, pots and caps tames any high gain buzz. The combination of the three changes I made is really successful feel-wise, I don't think it's necessary to do all three changes - I imagine the Seths would sound exactly the same with all controls on 10 but I think that part of the sound of the Seths when changing volume and tone settings is definitely effected by the taper and the different wiring scheme, the way the volume and tone rolls off is definitely different and tone interacts with volume to give different flavours of sound, this suits the way the Seths sound and makes them more shapable, I believe this would have made less sense with the original pickups which felt more sterile (unsurprising, and to be frank uninspiring), although I'm sure the original wiring, pots and caps would have worked really well with an angrier more modern sounding pickup.

It might be a mistake to say this, I already mentioned it, but the Luxe Bumblebee caps I used (expensive for capacitors but in the grand scheme of things a fun and inexpensive addition when compared to the price of the rest of the guitar) may add something too, although only when the tone pots are engaged - i.e. not up to 10. I would resist recommending these specific caps but why not try some similar PIO caps?

I have read so many arguments on whether only the value of components makes a sonic difference or if the operating principle/composition of a component can change it's effect on a circuit. I have been told again and again by manufacturers and designers that the type of components may make no measurable difference in a non-audio circuit (operating at a sensible temperature - some different types of capacitor definitely behave differently at high and low temperatures - that's why some of the types exist!), but when you pass audio through a circuit different components DO filter frequencies in different ways - for instance in a tone circuit. The closest that I have come to proving this for myself is that I scratch built two Timmy ODs, first breadboarded with cheapest possible components so I could make a few changes with a few ideas I had, the second with identical values but nicer pots, CC resistors and Hifi caps - The second pedal definitely sounds different. It subjectively sounds better to me, it's warmer, a little louder and seems more subtle, a bit less compressed and more rich. The first is definitely colder and a bit scratchy or maybe spikey. This could be due to component drift as I didn't measure every component (wish I had) but I always buy better components now or at least the recommended ones.

Did you do the 50s wiring mod and did you change the caps? If not and you decide to I would get new pots anyway (vintage or normal taper is up to you) just so you can do a neater job, but definitely give some PIO caps a go, that's what's inside all the original 57s, 58s, 59s and 60's we all lust after. This Russian ones are about $8 for a pair on eBay, bargain.

 

[Studioplayer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

Aside from the Seths that are now in my Classic, the only audible tone change was from the Orange drop caps tomr place those original ceramic disk type. The OD caps seem to have quieted the circuit down abit and added a hi-if like clarity (when activate). The Seths allow for more efficient use of my amp's gain circuit; in that I can seek out shades of gain/OD tones that would have not been so noticeable with a more compressed style pickup. That was my whole purpose of going with Seths. My neck pup is @ 7.2 and the bridge @ 8.2. I think that I hear more of my amp's circuit and it's tone than before.


Studioplayer

 

[Les PaulBearer]

Re: Seth Lovers and 50's spec wiring MOD

I'm told my CS336 has those little ceramic disc caps. I'm not sure what's in there because it sounds immense, a real bruiser, loud with that bell like very classic Gibson sound - very lively Les Paul sounding I guess, more that than archtop for sure, makes sense as really if you ignore the shape it's a chambered LP with F holes. Supposedly just 57 classics, I got the thing new so nothing's been changed, I wouldn't dare 'cause I wouldn't change a thing about it how it sounds and plays. It's silly but I haven't had time to compare - busy work week. The 336 makes it really easy to play with feedback, if you want it then it's just there and super controllable, I'm hoping the feel of the Tokai will follow the same thing at big volumes, feels like it should but despite being 3 days into the mod I haven't bothered to get real noisy yet - need the wife to be out to properly crank it and shake the walls. This weekend, me, some beers, Tokai, 336, my pedal board and the AC30TBX - hope the neighbours are out for their sakes.

I think I've blah'd about this mod enough now. If anyone has any questions about taking their LP electronics back in time I'd be happy to help. It's been fun discussing this! For the last time to anyone reading this, I can't recommend the addition of Seth Lover P'ups, Vintage taper pots and some PIO caps with 50s wiring enough - if you're going for a heavy blues/rock vibe and wish your LP was a 59 then get this done, you won't regret it.