Seymour Duncan asymmetrical coils?

[Rex_Rocker]

I know the common statement is that no Duncan has asymmetrical coils other than the 'Hybrid and some CS offerings like the Dyad and the Fuglybucker.

However, I came across these analyses on the Jazz, Full Shred, Nazgul, and Pegasus.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg5W0swO8l4

https://www.instagram.com/p/ChIspOLurlZ

Those values seem to fall within the 10% tolerance that Duncans have, but he does show visually the coils look unbalanced. That channel/profile/whatever seems to have pretty solid analyses that make a lot of sense to me too.

So... what do you all think?

 

[xxxplorer]

No clue really. But I did order a Wagner Ironman tweaked with assymetric coils. One at 1100 and the other at 850 ish. I've been looking this stuff up as of late lol.

 

[jeremy]

i dont know much about those two pups so cant really give much guidance on them

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't have my Nazguls anymore to confirm. I wish I had kept one now, LOL.

 

[htrd]

My Pegasus Trembucker had absolutely symmetrical coils, 6.5K each.
Both Nazguls I had were slightly asymmetrical, the outer coil was 0.2K hotter. Humbucker was 6.8/7K, trembucker - 7,1/7,3K.

I think that shouldn't be compared with pickups like 59/Custom Hybrid and Dimarzio Dual Resonance pickups, that use the coils with different wire gauge.

 

[freefrog]

Those values seem to fall within the 10% tolerance that Duncans have, but he does show visually the coils look unbalanced. That channel/profile/whatever seems to have pretty solid analyses that make a lot of sense to me too.

So... what do you all think?

I think that most humbuckers are unbalanced to some extent...

One would need strictly identical bobbins with same magnetic poles and exactly the same number of turns to make a really balanced HB... but even with that, the simple use of 4-cond. cable would introduce capacitive mismatching, susceptible to generate peaks and dips beyond main resonant frequency - with the paradox that unbalanced coils compensating capacitive mismatching can make an humbucker MORE balanced finally.

Side note: the inductance values quoted by the aforementioned channel might be partly due to how the measurements are done (inductive values being lowered by eddy currents when measured at high frequencies. To me, that's potentially why the slugs coils are evoked as having a higher inductance in this case: because they are less affected by Foucault currents and not necessarily because they are inherently more inductive).

FWIW.

 

[Bowtomecha]

This has me wondering if I should try my Pegasus 7 again and turn it around. My biggest complaint was the lack of treble and the amount of flubby bass. I added a ceramic flank and hex poles to tighten and brighten but it still was rather mild. I suppose i could just go with a full ceramic magnet swap. I’d like to see what I can squeeze out of the Pegasus to make it more lively.

 

[Seashore]

This has me wondering if I should try my Pegasus 7 again and turn it around. My biggest complaint was the lack of treble and the amount of flubby bass. I added a ceramic flank and hex poles to tighten and brighten but it still was rather mild. I suppose i could just go with a full ceramic magnet swap. I’d like to see what I can squeeze out of the Pegasus to make it more lively.

The ceramic helps, but after playing it both ways for a while I realized it's still a Pegasus. I like it but it doesn't have the attack I want. Keeping the body of the pickup down and raising the screws closer to the strings might get you some of what you're looking for. I don't think flipping it around is going to do the trick. It's free to try though!

 

[Aceman]

I think Falbo, or maybe Kevin the Engineer once told me that for uneven winds, they had to be significantly different for it to make a real difference.

 

[Seashore]

I think Falbo, or maybe Kevin the Engineer once told me that for uneven winds, they had to be significantly different for it to make a real difference.

I remember you saying this in my JB/Distortion thread. I'm not so sure of it. How much mismatch is "significant" and what constitutes a "real difference" in the sound?

I know Bare Knuckle does mostly asymmetrical humbuckers and they tweak the offset between the coils for different tonal characteristics. Tim from BKP has a few comments on their board talking about offsets in the 300 turn range beginning to open up the high end and changing perception of the midrange in a PAF-ish recipe, and also saying that it can take up to a 1,000 turn mismatch for noise to become audible.

I've also read a couple comments from people who unwrapped some turns from one coil to repair a symmetrical humbucker after a break, and said they found it more open and dynamic afterwards. And judging by the few hybrids I've put together, even if I'm not thrilled with the EQ balance in the end result, I'm always happier with the way it responds to my picking, and the high end feels less compressed.

Just putting this out there, not trying to come at you or say Frank is wrong. I glean from Freefrog's posts that there are other winding factors at play, like lower capacitance due to scatterwinding, that also affect the high end. So maybe there are a few ways to skin the cat. But I'm a big believer in coil mismatch for my own playing.

 

[Aceman]

Just putting this out there, not trying to come at you or say Frank is wrong. I glean from Freefrog's posts that there are other winding factors at play, like lower capacitance due to scatterwinding, that also affect the high end. So maybe there are a few ways to skin the cat. But I'm a big believer in coil mismatch for my own playing.

Offense taken. I don't remember the minute/detail.

And as always - there is a LOT of mojo that comes together in a pickup; Magnet type, wind style, number of winds, wire gauge, coils themselves, baseplates, etc...Thinks that you might think would be the same just are not.

 

[freefrog]

Just putting this out there, not trying to come at you or say Frank is wrong. I glean from Freefrog's posts that there are other winding factors at play, like lower capacitance due to scatterwinding, that also affect the high end. So maybe there are a few ways to skin the cat. But I'm a big believer in coil mismatch for my own playing.

I wouldn't say either that Frank Falbo was wrong if we consider the coils ALONE (separately) : a DiMarzio DLX+ has one of its coils more than twice higher in DCR than the other. But they have the same inductance because of a same number of turns around the same bobbins/screw poles, and the difference of Q factor / amplitude of their resonant peaks is not drastic on a dB scale.

That's when coils are connected to each other that things become more complex (even with supposedly balanced humbuckers). I've worked with/for two pickups designers on this question, which appears to be ignored or misunderstood in most internet contributions - reason why I share about that.

I've exchanged some nice PM's with Frank Falbo here and elsewhere, BTW. Very valuable member of the past Duncan staff IMHO...

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I wouldn't have thought the Jazz was uneven coils, TBH. I mean, his sample size is 1 pickup, right? Could've just been tolerances, right? But then his Full Shred, which allegedly is just a Jazz with hex screws, has pretty much the same difference in the same coil as his Jazz. I find that curious.

 

[misterwhizzy]

I wouldn't have thought the Jazz was uneven coils, TBH. I mean, his sample size is 1 pickup, right? Could've just been tolerances, right? But then his Full Shred, which allegedly is just a Jazz with hex screws, has pretty much the same difference in the same coil as his Jazz. I find that curious.

I don't think you're right about that. The product page says it's a 14.1k DCR. I think it's the Custom wind with hex screws.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't think you're right about that. The product page says it's a 14.1k DCR. I think it's the Custom wind with hex screws.

I meant the FS-N.

 

[Seashore]

I wouldn't say either that Frank Falbo was wrong if we consider the coils ALONE (separately) : a DiMarzio DLX+ has one of its coils more than twice higher in DCR than the other. But they have the same inductance because of a same number of turns around the same bobbins/screw poles, and the difference of Q factor / amplitude of their resonant peaks is not drastic on a dB scale.

That's when coils are connected to each other that things become more complex (even with supposedly balanced humbuckers). I've worked with/for two pickups designers on this question, which appears to be ignored or misunderstood in most internet contributions - reason why I share about that.

I've exchanged some nice PM's with Frank Falbo here and elsewhere, BTW. Very valuable member of the past Duncan staff IMHO...

Do you have any thoughts on what Tim Mills (the BKP owner) says about their practice of tuning the pickup by using a different number of winds on each bobbin? Here's one of his posts:



I've been a big fan of their bridge humbuckers for a long time, and I've come to think these coil offsets along with scatterwinding are the things that account for what I like best about them across a few models - great string separation even with a lot of distortion, and a natural-sounding, complex high end. In looking to get closer to that with other pickups, I've experimented (in my own small and relatively ignorant way) with adjustments, magnet swaps, various polepieces, different wiring schemes, installing or removing covers, and assembling hybrids from pickups I know pretty well.

I like playing through the hybrids a lot. I know I'm taking a chance on the end product, not simply getting a cross between the way two pickups sound, but they've all felt more open and easier for me to dial in than their donors. Even when the EQ is a bit weird!

All of this makes me think I would probably really like the results if I successfully unwrapped a few hundred turns from one bobbin on a couple of my symmetrically wound pickups, particularly my JB, which sounds good but feels kind of stuffy to play through and could use more openness and bite.

I know there's a lot missing from my understanding of all this, but does the way I'm thinking about it make sense? Or am I giving too much weight to the effects of asymmetrical coils, or disregarding more important factors?

 

[freefrog]

Do you have any thoughts on what Tim Mills (the BKP owner) says about their practice of tuning the pickup by using a different number of winds on each bobbin? Here's one of his posts:



I've been a big fan of their bridge humbuckers for a long time, and I've come to think these coil offsets along with scatterwinding are the things that account for what I like best about them across a few models - great string separation even with a lot of distortion, and a natural-sounding, complex high end. In looking to get closer to that with other pickups, I've experimented (in my own small and relatively ignorant way) with adjustments, magnet swaps, various polepieces, different wiring schemes, installing or removing covers, and assembling hybrids from pickups I know pretty well.

I like playing through the hybrids a lot. I know I'm taking a chance on the end product, not simply getting a cross between the way two pickups sound, but they've all felt more open and easier for me to dial in than their donors. Even when the EQ is a bit weird!

All of this makes me think I would probably really like the results if I successfully unwrapped a few hundred turns from one bobbin on a couple of my symmetrically wound pickups, particularly my JB, which sounds good but feels kind of stuffy to play through and could use more openness and bite.

I know there's a lot missing from my understanding of all this, but does the way I'm thinking about it make sense? Or am I giving too much weight to the effects of asymmetrical coils, or disregarding more important factors?

I don't feel qualified to decide if what other people think makes sense or not but here are my thoughts, FWIW:

-What Tim Mills explained in his post sounds to me as another way to conceptualize and to word what I've tried to explain through the idea of capacitive mismatching (whose effect is to create a comb filtering beyond the main resonant peak, IOW in the high harmonics);

-I'm not sure I'd attribute the clarity of BKP's to coils offset only. To me, it has also if not mainly to do with the globally low parasitic capacitance of such hand wound pickups...

It's not to say that unwinding one coil on a JB wouldn't / couldn't be interesting. But without measuring the resonant peak of each coil once the mod done, it would appear to me as a shot in the dark.

Can I ask you if the BKP pickups that you love feature 4-conductors or 2-conductors cables, BTW?

 

[Seashore]

I don't feel qualified to decide if what other people think makes sense or not but here are my thoughts, FWIW:

-What Tim Mills explained in his post sounds to me as another way to conceptualize and to word what I've tried to explain through the idea of capacitive mismatching (whose effect is to create a comb filtering beyond the main resonant peak, IOW in the high harmonics);

-I'm not sure I'd attribute the clarity of BKP's to coils offset only. To me, it has also if not mainly to do with the globally low parasitic capacitance of such hand wound pickups...

It's not to say that unwinding one coil on a JB wouldn't / couldn't be interesting. But without measuring the resonant peak of each coil once the mod done, it would appear to me as a shot in the dark.

Can I ask you if the BKP pickups that you love feature 4-conductors or 2-conductors cables, BTW?

Awesome. Thanks so much for responding. Would the lower capacitance be the result of scatterwinding, or would lower tension also contribute to it?

I don't have any way (that I know) of individually measuring the resonant peak of a coil, but I could probably record before and after clips in the same guitar with the same set of strings so people could at least hear the result through my rig.

To your question, it's a mix of both. I have a 2-conductor Rebel Yell in my old Explorer (6 strings), and 4-conductor versions of a 6 string Cold Sweat, 7 string Rebel Yell, and 7 string ceramic Warpig in other guitars at the moment. Those are all bridge models. They're all great. The two Rebel Yells sound and feel very similar for being different models in different guitars/tunings.

 

[freefrog]

Awesome. Thanks so much for responding. Would the lower capacitance be the result of scatterwinding, or would lower tension also contribute to it?

I don't have any way (that I know) of individually measuring the resonant peak of a coil, but I could probably record before and after clips in the same guitar with the same set of strings so people could at least hear the result through my rig.

To your question, it's a mix of both. I have a 2-conductor Rebel Yell in my old Explorer (6 strings), and 4-conductor versions of a 6 string Cold Sweat, 7 string Rebel Yell, and 7 string ceramic Warpig in other guitars at the moment. Those are all bridge models. They're all great. The two Rebel Yells sound and feel very similar for being different models in different guitars/tunings.

You're welcome. For me, low capacitance is potentially due to scatterwinding AND lower tension but this subject remains a can of worms because it's perfectly possible for a hand wound PU to be highly capacitive.

Regarding how to test pickups, it's effectively doable IME/IMO to obtain something reliable results from tracks played and recorded direct to the board: the trick is to stack all the frequencies produced by the strings in order to obtain a final spectrum showing the overall frequency response...

Thx for the reply about your BKP's. No doubt they sound great. Enjoy!

 

[xxxplorer]

I just put in a custom Jim Wagner Ironman Pickup that I had him offset the coils on for fun. The fillister bobbin is wound full. 11K. The slug side is wound lighter, around 9K. It is brighter and snappier than my standard Ironmans. But still sounds familiar. I need to spend more time with it and feel it out. I have these pickups in several of my guitars, so I wanted slight variances in them lol. I have a standard stock 22K with the ceramic. I have another where I put A2 in. Another with A4. And now this offset variant. All in the ballpark. But different positions on the field.