Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

I have a Plexi.

It is not clean.

It easily gets insane, over-the-top distortion, just like the first four Van Halen albums.

Easily.

All you need to do is crank it. Heck, it get's 75% of the way there, with a PPIMV. Having said that, 75% of the VH tone is a Plexi + Greenbacks.

+1, the other 20% is a strat with a vintage trem and a PAF....and the other 5% (the last part we will never get).....are Eddie's hands and fingers
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

I think Occam's Razor is the way to go with the "how to get an Eddie sort of tone". I think I believe his original Guitar Player interview the most, because he was somewhat caught in the moment to do an interview when Pat "Isn't he dead?" Travers blew off the intended interview. So I think I'm going to go with... he put a PAF in there from an early 60's 335, it was messed up and he had it "rewound to his specs" by Seymour. Then later when he switched to the Floyd, he had it rewound hotter (early "Custom" wind). Same parts, same pickup, just rewound. There are pics with Frankie with double-cream pickups, but I'm sure that was a very short phase.

I think people are apt to over complicate things. I believe Ed when he said he likes to keep things simple. I remember seeing footage of him showing an interviewer his rig and rack setup in the 90's and it seemed like he barely knew what it all did and even said, it looks more complicated than it is.
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

He`s not dead , he`ll be doing a gig in SF tomorrow

I know that. I mean, he's another one of those guys who thought more himself than the general public did. He's a decent guitarist though. One of the hordes of 70's guitar dudes that shrugged off Eddie or ignored him altogether when they shared a bill... Joe Perry, Montrose...etc. I don't know who said it, but I read a quote that said something like, all of the great guitarists of the 70's who thought they might be the "next Hendrix" saw their dreams go down in flames in the 1:42 it took to hear Eruption for the first time. Or see those Pasadena punk kids rip them apart live. I'm sure it must have sucked to be those guys. ;)

And for the record, I don't like music being a competition. I always hated "Battle of the Bands" sorts of things. But that was the way things were in those days. I'm sure they've all grown up by now..
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

I think Occam's Razor is the way to go with the "how to get an Eddie sort of tone". I think I believe his original Guitar Player interview the most, because he was somewhat caught in the moment to do an interview when Pat "Isn't he dead?" Travers blew off the intended interview. So I think I'm going to go with... he put a PAF in there from an early 60's 335, it was messed up and he had it "rewound to his specs" by Seymour. Then later when he switched to the Floyd, he had it rewound hotter (early "Custom" wind). Same parts, same pickup, just rewound. There are pics with Frankie with double-cream pickups, but I'm sure that was a very short phase.

I think people are apt to over complicate things. I believe Ed when he said he likes to keep things simple. I remember seeing footage of him showing an interviewer his rig and rack setup in the 90's and it seemed like he barely knew what it all did and even said, it looks more complicated than it is.
I completely agree!
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

I know that. I mean, he's another one of those guys who thought more himself than the general public did. He's a decent guitarist though. One of the hordes of 70's guitar dudes that shrugged off Eddie or ignored him altogether when they shared a bill... Joe Perry, Montrose...etc. I don't know who said it, but I read a quote that said something like, all of the great guitarists of the 70's who thought they might be the "next Hendrix" saw their dreams go down in flames in the 1:42 it took to hear Eruption for the first time. Or see those Pasadena punk kids rip them apart live. I'm sure it must have sucked to be those guys. ;)

And for the record, I don't like music being a competition. I always hated "Battle of the Bands" sorts of things. But that was the way things were in those days. I'm sure they've all grown up by now..
You might want to check out Pats Jan '80 guitar player interview , he had nothing but praise for young evh but I'm getting off the topic here on this zillionth evh pickup thread (LOL by the way)
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

i think its fun :smokin: I like the mystery of the whole thing
yeah not much mystery in most other players tones at least not as much mystery as ed's. U gotta admit love or hate the guy it is amazing thdt 30+ years after he recorded that tone it is still a very hot topic.
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

yeah not much mystery in most other players tones at least not as much mystery as ed's. U gotta admit love or hate the guy it is amazing thdt 30+ years after he recorded that tone it is still a very hot topic.

The only other thing that I can think of that would be even somewhat close (not really) to the EVH tone mystery would be the Slash #39/#36 marshall the he used to record appetite for destruction......which marshall has just finished the new AFD100 100watt head.
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

There is a Ed timeline and often things get superimposed from a later year back to a earlier year or vice versa and it all ends up a big mess of unrelated things being jumbled together.

There are no Ed interviews from 1977 which is the year VH1 was recorded.

There are Ed interviews starting around mid 1978, which was way past the recording of VH1, and it's in these interviews that Ed talks about PAF's.
Ed was using a PAF in 1978 when these first interviews took place.

It turns out that the PAF Ed was using in 1978 was a rewound PAF done by Seymour Duncan who had just started advertising pickup rewinding services hence the EVH78 ie 1978 ie after VH1 in 1977.

The pickups Ed was using in the clubs in 1977, which is the year when VH1 was recorded, were pretty hot Mighty Mite Ceramics which were based on DiMarzio Super Distortions and Seymour Duncan did some OEM work for Mighty Mite around this period and then went his own way offering rewinding and then his own brand of pickups.
Seymour would probably know that Ed used Mighty Mites before his rewound PAF but I wouldn't go asking him.
Early Mighty Mite pickups have no bobbin holes and other features as well, and can be ID'ed in Ed's 1977 club photos.

VH got signed around May 1977, and Ted Templeman and Donn Landee took VH into the studio for some demos soon after, and these are the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos.
Ed is photographed at the end of May 1977 with a Mighty Mite ceramic in his Strat and this is around the time when the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos were recorded.
The Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos have a very VH1 thing to them and there is no Ain't Talking About Love on them because Ed was yet to write it, which he did soon after and it is on VH1 which was recorded a few months after the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos.

In the 1977 club photos, Ed has the pretty hot Mighty Mite Ceramic pickup a fair distance from the strings but the later photos (around 78/79) show Ed has the rewound Seymour Duncan PAF really close to the strings, in fact it couldn't really go higher.
These photos are around for anyone to see.
The Japan 1978 photos show Ed's amps with all the controls turned to 10 as well.

Why put a 9k PAF so close to the strings if the amp is not basically stock.
The reason Ed's got the rewound PAF up so high is to get as much gain from it as possible and he would not need to do that if the amp was modded with a cascade or something else.
John Suhr might have seen Ed's main amp in the early 90s, but the front end solder joints were original according to him (except a fat cap on V2), so there has never been a front end cascade or preamp gain mod and this has been backed up by Dave Friedman who does amp work for Ed.

Ed was adjusting pickup height based on the particluar pickups gain ie back off for a 13k Mighty Mite ceramic and just about hit the strings with a lower output 9k rewound PAF.

The rewound Seymour Duncan PAF is the VHII Franky pickup and the Mighty Mite ceramic is the VHII Destroyer pickup (there are VHII photos).

The VH1 Strat pickup is most likely to be the Mighty Mite ceramic and the VH1 Destroyer pickup is most likely to be the (probably EQ boosted) Super 70 A8 which has quite a few ceramic qualities.

Ceramic aggressiveness through a Phase, Echoplex and into a maxed variaced and rebiased Plexi. and into one cab maxing out the speakers

Also it turns out that the Franky was light and the action was pretty low and Ed's pick was medium thin and this is from Jas Obrecht (Guitar Player mag) who played the Franky at the DOTG 1978.

btw most of the clips of a nice A2 or A5 8k PAF on Metroamp or elsewhere are run into a cascaded amp to get the gain.
Using a A2 PAF to try for VH1 really needs added amp mods or something to compensate, VHII A2/A5 PAF (nearly hitting the strings) stock amp - yes, VH1 - probably not.

Ralle for instance was using a pretty hot JB into a cascade for ages.
Just recently he has changed to a ceramic DiMarzio Super Distortion and did not need the amp cascade anymore and went back to a STOCK amp.
Rockstah went to DiMarzio Distortions with a ceramic magnet from SD 59's.
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

The Metroamp clip of the guy playing "Unchained" with a Les Paul features a stock 12xxx Super Lead replica with ONLY a "virtual variac" mod, so unless the Les Paul had a 500T in it, it's likely much of growl from it was from the starved input plate. Old Marshalls usually CLEANED UP as you turned the volume up, but by starving the input, it distorts the tubes more than usual, like keeping a master volume down and the gain up, only in reverse. At least, that's what I understand.

But there are other pieces to the sound including the compressor that was used and I still think there was a dummy load involved so the effects didn't mud out in the Plexi.
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

There is a Ed timeline and often things get superimposed from a later year back to a earlier year or vice versa and it all ends up a big mess of unrelated things being jumbled together.

There are no Ed interviews from 1977 which is the year VH1 was recorded.

There are Ed interviews starting around mid 1978, which was way past the recording of VH1, and it's in these interviews that Ed talks about PAF's.
Ed was using a PAF in 1978 when these first interviews took place.

It turns out that the PAF Ed was using in 1978 was a rewound PAF done by Seymour Duncan who had just started advertising pickup rewinding services hence the EVH78 ie 1978 ie after VH1 in 1977.

The pickups Ed was using in the clubs in 1977, which is the year when VH1 was recorded, were pretty hot Mighty Mite Ceramics which were based on DiMarzio Super Distortions and Seymour Duncan did some OEM work for Mighty Mite around this period and then went his own way offering rewinding and then his own brand of pickups.
Seymour would probably know that Ed used Mighty Mites before his rewound PAF but I wouldn't go asking him.
Early Mighty Mite pickups have no bobbin holes and other features as well, and can be ID'ed in Ed's 1977 club photos.

VH got signed around May 1977, and Ted Templeman and Donn Landee took VH into the studio for some demos soon after, and these are the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos.
Ed is photographed at the end of May 1977 with a Mighty Mite ceramic in his Strat and this is around the time when the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos were recorded.
The Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos have a very VH1 thing to them and there is no Ain't Talking About Love on them because Ed was yet to write it, which he did soon after and it is on VH1 which was recorded a few months after the Warner Brothers (After Zero) demos.

In the 1977 club photos, Ed has the pretty hot Mighty Mite Ceramic pickup a fair distance from the strings but the later photos (around 78/79) show Ed has the rewound Seymour Duncan PAF really close to the strings, in fact it couldn't really go higher.
These photos are around for anyone to see.
The Japan 1978 photos show Ed's amps with all the controls turned to 10 as well.

Why put a 9k PAF so close to the strings if the amp is not basically stock.
The reason Ed's got the rewound PAF up so high is to get as much gain from it as possible and he would not need to do that if the amp was modded with a cascade or something else.
John Suhr might have seen Ed's main amp in the early 90s, but the front end solder joints were original according to him (except a fat cap on V2), so there has never been a front end cascade or preamp gain mod and this has been backed up by Dave Friedman who does amp work for Ed.

Ed was adjusting pickup height based on the particluar pickups gain ie back off for a 13k Mighty Mite ceramic and just about hit the strings with a lower output 9k rewound PAF.

The rewound Seymour Duncan PAF is the VHII Franky pickup and the Mighty Mite ceramic is the VHII Destroyer pickup (there are VHII photos).

The VH1 Strat pickup is most likely to be the Mighty Mite ceramic and the VH1 Destroyer pickup is most likely to be the (probably EQ boosted) Super 70 A8 which has quite a few ceramic qualities.

Ceramic aggressiveness through a Phase, Echoplex and into a maxed variaced and rebiased Plexi. and into one cab maxing out the speakers

Also it turns out that the Franky was light and the action was pretty low and Ed's pick was medium thin and this is from Jas Obrecht (Guitar Player mag) who played the Franky at the DOTG 1978.

btw most of the clips of a nice A2 or A5 8k PAF on Metroamp or elsewhere are run into a cascaded amp to get the gain.
Using a A2 PAF to try for VH1 really needs added amp mods or something to compensate, VHII A2/A5 PAF (nearly hitting the strings) stock amp - yes, VH1 - probably not.

Ralle for instance was using a pretty hot JB into a cascade for ages.
Just recently he has changed to a ceramic DiMarzio Super Distortion and did not need the amp cascade anymore and went back to a STOCK amp.
Rockstah went to DiMarzio Distortions with a ceramic magnet from SD 59's.

Hot Pickups dont add that much gain to an amp. If you you play a hot pickup into a plexi, it will not get you the same result if you had i modded for more gain/cascaded
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

there is a ed timeline and often things get superimposed from a later year back to a earlier year or vice versa and it all ends up a big mess of unrelated things being jumbled together.


The vh1 strat pickup is most likely to be the mighty mite ceramic and the vh1 destroyer pickup is most likely to be the (probably eq boosted) super 70 a8 which has quite a few ceramic qualities.

+1
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

Hot Pickups dont add that much gain to an amp. If you you play a hot pickup into a plexi, it will not get you the same result if you had i modded for more gain/cascaded

Last time I had a look the DiMarzio Super Distortion had around 425 mV output and a PAF had around 203 mV output, give or take and the Mighty Mite Distortion would be similar to the DiMarzio Super Distortions output.

This is a bit of VH noodling with a DiMarzio Super Distortion and a stock Plexi with 1968 specs. Missing are the Phase and Echoplex and it's not recorded very well and there is a amp attenuator used as well which ends up different from just running the amp maxed out with no attenuator and the guitar has a Floyd when it should really have a Fender trem.

http://forum.metroamp.com/download/file.php?id=11634
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

The bass is a bit too thick for the post-floyd tones. The A2-powered CC would be a tad closer doing Fair Warning and Diver Down licks. As for the pre-floyd tones, the SuperD sounds a tad compressed and not open enough.

The most convincing imitation of the VH1 sound I've heard was done with a '59.

Also pick harmonics on the first few albums were a bit mellower which would indicate a more PAF type wind. The harmonics after Floyd, seem to be much more pronounced indicating a hotter wind.

As you said, the bridge is VERY important. The song "Light up the Sky" has a certain decay to the main riff chords like a "Bowwwww" that can only be from a Fender bridge. The Floyd tones are tighter and lack that decay.
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

It turns out that the PAF Ed was using in 1978 was a rewound PAF done by Seymour Duncan who had just started advertising pickup rewinding services hence the EVH78 ie 1978 ie after VH1 in 1977.

I'm calling BS on this one...Ed clearly stated in a Guitar Player interview "See, I've rewound my own pickups before, and a guy named Seymour Duncan, I got pissed at him too. He called me up and said, "Can we use your name for a special pickup?" And I said no. Next time I pick up Guitar Player magazine, there's a special Van Halen model customized Duncan pickup. I called him up and said, "What the hell's goin' on?" So he stopped finally"

SD has been trying to capitalize on EVH since the day he became hot on the scene. The first EVH pickup that SD designed had nothing to do with the original Frankie PAF at all because Duncan never laid hands on it...it was simply SD trying to capitalize on EVH with a "special Van Halen model customized Duncan pickup" which, as we all know, became the "Custom Custom". All these years later, the Duncan Custom Shop "EVH" is BS as well...all it is a Duncan '59 that buyers are getting suckered into buying as some kind of "EVH pickup". The true story I heard behind the original PAF in the Frankie is that somehow the one coil winding got damaged and Ed had a friend who's dad was an electronics technician; he is the one who simply unwound the one coil to the break and reattached it.

The pickups Ed was using in the clubs in 1977, which is the year when VH1 was recorded, were pretty hot Mighty Mite Ceramics

Where the hell did you get this info??? You guys need to read EVH's own words from the early interviews - that's where the truth is. With regards to the pickup EVH put in the black strat with yellow stripes:

EVH: I got a DiMarzio pickup, and I don't really go for those, because they're real distorted. See, I like a clean sound, but with sustain. I hate the fuzz box, real raspy sound. I don't particularly go for that...The DiMarzio pickups have real big magnets that's how they get their power - so I took the DiMarzio pickup and put the P.A.F. magnet in it and I rewound it, which took a long time.

GP: You did that by hand?

EVH: Yeah. It took a long time to rewind that thing. Actually, I ruined about three pickups. By the fourth time, you know, it worked.

GP: What other pickups did you try?

EVH: That's about it. I'd do anything to get an old P.A.F. They're the best. They go for 100, 200 bucks apiece, but that's what I use, that's what I like. A lot of people don't like them. See, with my setup, it's matched. Like if I play my guitar through someone else's setup, it won't sound right. And if I use someone else's guitar through my setup, it won't sound right.

With regards to EVH's pickups in general:

GP: Do you do anything special to your pickups?

EVH: I usually use old Gibson PAFs, and I always pot them. I submerge the whole thing in paraffin wax, and this cuts out the high obnoxious feedback. It's kind of a tricky thing because if you leave it in there too long. The pickup melts. I take a coffee can and melt down some wax -- the same kind that you use for surfboards -- and put the pickup in it. See, one of the reasons a pickup feeds back is that the coil windings vibrate, and when the wax soaks in there, it keeps them from vibrating as much. It will still feed back, but it's controllable. After I dip the pickup in paraffin, I put copper tape around it. You have to be really careful if you do this to a pickup like a DiMarzio. You can throw an old PAF in there and let is soak it up; it doesn't melt. But with DiMarzio, if you blink, all of a sudden your pickup's ruined.


So there you go...there is no "special magical VH pickup"...Ed simply used old Gibson PAF's, possibly modded by Ed himself but who knows? Doesn't matter anyway because only EVH will ever sound like EVH...besides it has WAY more to do with the amp along with smart signal routing and recording techniques...
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

There is a Timeline.
Taking things from other years and putting them in previous years is just a jumbled load of BS.

Seymour started offering rewinding service in 1978 or just before, and this is info taken from a SD interview.
Later on in 1978 Seymour starts his own pickups and also releases a EVH pickup which Ed pulled.

From most of the info around, Ed went to Seymour in early 1978 just before Ed set off on the 1978 World Tour and had his PAF rewound by Seymour and this is the black PAF that appears in the B&W Franky starting in early 1978 and on the VH1 cover which was done in early 1978, way past the actual VH1 recording date.
There are corresponding early 1978 club photos of the VH1 cover photos and the Destroyer is still White in these club photos. Ed went through a short silver platform shoe period in early 1978 (to please Dave as Ed put it) and the shoes are on the VH1 cover and the early 1978 club photos.
VH1 was released in February 1978.

Before all this Ed was using Mighty Mites in the clubs.

Here is Ed using a White 13-14k ceramic Mighty Mite in the first half of 1977 (Motels club date).
It is not a DiMarzio Distortion, it is a Mighty Mite and can be ID'd by the lack of bobbin holes and other features.
Ed most likely bought the Mighty Mites from Wayne Charvels shop and Ed also had a Mighty Mite bridge (cover of VH1) and other Mighty Mite pickups as well.

http://musikfoto.com/rockpics.php?tsk=view&tag=Van Halen

There are other club photos of Ed using a Mighty Mite ceramic at the end of May 1977 as well.

These are not PAF's.
The PAF's came later in 1978.
Ed changed pickups in 1978 and Ed has changed pickups a lot since then, Big Deal.
When VH1 was recorded it was not in 1978 but 1977 and Ed was using Mighty Mite ceramics in 1977.
 
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Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

The photos are attributed to 1976, if you read the site's link. And I have no idea how you can tell that that white or cream-colored pup is a "mighty mite" pickup. It could be a 1959-1960 PAF when they were using white bobbins. It is kinda neat to see him play a rosewood Fender with a 'bucker stuck in the bridge. The first-ever HSS guitar.
 
Re: Seymour duncan custom custom Van halen sound

This thread is turning out really funny.
Please put some other link to pictures, they're very interesting.

BTW, the pickup swap game I do is just to find a sound that I like with my rig, I'm not into mimic anyone and, really,I don't believe it could be possible to replicate his sound, even using the same woods and electronics.
You know, two pieces of ash wood sound different, you can only imagine how many variables are involved in, but it's interesting to plot down the timeline of the Van Halen sound evolution because it is however a conerstone for everyone, especially DIYers.
 
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