SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

[Myaccount876]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

What's the difference between the SH-1 and SH-2? Both have the A5 bar magnet.

If you think that DCR isn't part of the selling point then you would be mistaken. Go to other pickup winders such as Throbak.. and check their pickups description out. They all have the DCR in the description. Somebody orders a 8.6k from ThroBak that's what they are going to get they aren't going get a 9.7k from them. I'm going say the same thing from Lollar if you order a pickup it's going be what you order it's not going to be 1k more.

When I took the measurement it was a 83° F.. I stuck it in the fridge and I'm going see what I get.

Here's an entry by Bill Lawrence who definitely knew his stuff, and he couldn't sum it up any better.

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pickupology/output_sonic_evaluation.htm

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Sh-2 has a thinner wire I believe. I also think a different wind pattern but I'm not too sure.

Nothing wrong with the pickups. I like all of them.

I went under the assumption that it's a certain DCR.. I understand the DCR is a rough estimate on the winds.


When I wind my pickups I know how many winds I have to get to stay within what I'm shooting for. I have a log and not once have I've been off 1k.. Now I just started winding my pickups a few months back. I'm far from being an expert and even a pro at it.
I have used a few different roles of copper. 5400 winds of 42AWG PE will in the ball park of 4.4kΩ a coil. 4100 winds will get me in the ballpark of 3.1kΩ. Not once have I gone over 1k when I wound it to those specs.

The majority of my pickups before I starting to wind are SD.. You can't mention pickups without mentioning SD, SL, MJ, and AY. Do I think it has to be 16.4 on the nose absolutely not. The pickup I'm not going replace with one of mine out is a SD..

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Do your homework ......
59 or sh1 is wound on the lessona as a Paf type & uses Plain enamel wire .
the Jazz is a more Modern pickup that uses poly wire .
Look in the hole in the bobbin .

Copper if you sold one of your pickups that was advertise at 8.6KΩ and the customer wanted to return it because it read 9.5kΩ you would tell him it's in tolerance?

DCR might be a rough estimate, but it is still a factor when someone is determining what pickups they want.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

I have nothing to add except to say I have no idea what a JB is supposed to read, or can I remember what any of the JBs I have owned read. I can tell you they all sounded like JBs.

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

As I already posted take multiple readings (& Braided wire is more prone to have inconsistent readings that is all over the place ) you meter could jump around even if you have the pickup at the perfect temp .
I find this prob with buckers & never with fender style single coils .Higher gauge wire will have a greater difference in OhM'S Using percentage for this makes more sense
As for your question.
8.6k that with accurate reading measuring 9.5k
I've never encountered such a degree ,things to consider ..wire is out of spec ,
wire is being stretched-can be easily done with 44 gauge wire but not really with 42 gauge .
counter is not working properly ...
all my buckers are wound on My CNC winder ,as well as Seymour's with a controller number of turns ...... Doubt is this is happening

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

My SH-1 and SH-2n measure close to what the tone chart has.

The reason this whole thing came up was because I'm selling these pickups. Some one inquired about the JB and asked me about the DCR.

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Did you take multiple readings of the JB ? as i suggested ?
or try any bucker with braided wire ...test around in different places on the shield plus the shield tight .that meter will fluc like a slot machine in slo-mo

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

I have nothing to add except to say I have no idea what a JB is supposed to read, or can I remember what any of the JBs I have owned read. I can tell you they all sounded like JBs.

I've repaired or rewound probably at-least a dozen of these & the are pretty close to 16.4k +/- 5 % when it's sitting on your bench ...readings taken a guitar can be way out of spec .

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

I've repaired or rewound probably at-least a dozen of these & the are pretty close to 16.4k +/- 5 % when it's sitting on your bench ...readings taken a guitar can be way out of spec .

I've taken readings with pickup out of guitar.

It's a 4 wire..
Red/White together.
Black/Green - 17.49kΩ @ 83° F
Bare/Base - .5Ω
Black/Bare - Open Circuit
Green/Bare Open Circuit

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

This thread is much ado about nothing... Your putting way too much weight into DCR. There will always be some variation just due to inconsistency of a wire a long its length. Most wire is manufactured with a +/- 5% diameter along its length. This is where you see differences in DCR. Even wound to exactly the same turn counts from the same spool of wire you will wind up with a bit of variation. If your basing your purchase decisions solely on DCR thats just misguided. It can be a tool but its not always so useful. Let me give you a scenario.

Say you have a pickup that due to the wire being inconsistent is off in its spec this pickup will sound closer to its intended target than if you take and start peeling off turns of wire to bring it into spec. Turn count is much more important. But if you feel that somehow that pickup is defective I would suggest contacting customer service.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Sinster,

Yes it is about 1.5% out of spec. If you read the SD site you'll see that the published DCRs are the average and you could see 5% +/- tolerance.

Being you wind pickups you obviously know that the number of turns is much more important than the DC resistance. It's about the copper on the coil, not the measurement of the copper.

Are you trying to reverse engineer a JB, is that why you're worried so much about it? If you are I'd roll with the specs I already had and don't sweat it. Make sure you use a roughcast magnet and butyrate bobbins, unless you are going for the transition model that had nylon, and tell us how it comes out. Remember there will always be variation in your medium with different batches of wire and the insulation.

FWIW I have a killer 80s double creme JB that measures 15.6k. It's still very much a JB.

To add to Edgecrusher's post, the Steve Morse neck model is 21k, and the bridge is 9K....and I guarantee you the bridge is much much hotter.

Luke

 

[freefrog]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

I understand DCR changes with temperature and other factors, but it's not close. I used my Fluke 189 which is calibrated yearly. I also used my 20 year old Craftsman. Website chart states it should be 16.4kΩ I'm reading 17.5kΩ.... Fluke leads are .0 and the Craftsman are 1.0Ω.. Even with those factored. FWIW I have another pickup from another manufacture that's also the same out. I also tested my SH-1, SH-2, Gibson 57, and a few others and they are measuring what is called out.

I have here an old Jackson J50BC measuring 9,2k instead of the listed 8,5k. It's 8% off.

I don't care. Why? Because its measured inductance falls exactly in the range mentioned by Jackson (5,2H in this case).

And what makes the voicing of a pickup is its inductance, not its DCR.

With the same wire in the same kind of PU, more DCR = more inductance. But change the spool of wire and you might have to change the DCR if you want the same inductance...

Pickups makers mention DCR simply because most people haven't an inductance meter.

As a side note: many of the Duncan's that I've mounted since the early 80's hadn't the DCR mentioned in their specs. They still sounded clearly Duncan compared to the boatload of other pickups that I've dealt with.

FWIW.

EDIT - having seen some other of your posts elsewhere, I think that you know what I'm talking about so my answer might be partly useless. Please, keep in mind my initial goal: I was just trying to avoid you some useless contrariety. Stomachal acidity is not good for our health... !-))

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Are you trying to reverse engineer a JB, is that why you're worried so much about it?

Nope.. Like I mentioned before I'm selling it and someone inquired about it. That's how this whole thing started.. To be honest I've been modding my guitars since 1988 and have never come across a pickup 1k difference than what's posted. 85% of my pickups have been SD, 10% DiMarzio, and 5% pickups like GFS.

If my scope wasn't broken I would have test it with that.

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

My JB measures around 17k and it sounds like a JB. DC resitance is not the correct way to measure the output ( if that is what you are looking at) of a pickup. Thought it can at the most tell you how high the output is in comparison with other pickups . The Jazz and 59 have a diff wind ( and I think a diff wire) and there is where the main diff is, not DC resistance. To me they both have the same output

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

My JB measures around 17k and it sounds like a JB.

Are you telling me when you hear a guitar being played you can tell me the pickup manufacture and the model that is being played?

 

[Sinster]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

Thank you all for the responses. I do appreciate it.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

One thing worth pointing out is that if the spec is +/- 5% that's a much larger number the higher the DCR.

So a 16.4k spec can go from about 15.5-17.2 (yes technically that particular JB is out of spec)

But sinister you say you've wound pickups and "never had them be more than 1k off" while referring to various 42AWG pickups you've made under 10k. Well, on an 8k spec, a 5% tolerance would be +/- 0.4k, whereas on a 16k spec +/-5% is 0.8k. So don't get hung up by the number of the delta, but the percentage of the delta.

Here's another thing that will blow some people's minds. Everyone thinks if they get a pickup with a higher DCR that its hotter. In other words you think that a JB that reads 17.5k is hotter than one that reads 15.5k. But assuming both pickups have the exact same number of turns, it means the 17.5k was either stretched too tightly, or the wire was a little thinner off the spool. In both cases that could actually make the 17.5k pickup weaker and thinner! The 15.5k pickup has more copper on it. Thicker diameter wire. It would be the stronger, more open one, less whiney.

Now that's not a guarantee. Not in the least. A pickup can read high if only a small part is thin. It's not a guarantee the 15.5k is louder or stronger, I'm just pointing out that IF the number of turns are identical, a higher DCR doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.

 

[orpheo]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

You are forgetting the way SD makes their pickups. Especially the JB. high tech computer controlled winders: the worker loads up the bobbin plus wire, sets the machine to a specific wind pattern for a specific humbucker, and off you go! No more manual counting. The computer doesn't make a mistake. And even if for example the pattern for the SH6 was loaded in stead of the SH4, it would've been rejected during each of the three or so control stages.

It's. Just. 1000. Well within spec. No biggy. Ambient temperature of the winding room, of your room where you took the measurements, slight inconsistencies in the wire, etc etc all add up to a difference. But if you were to measure the amount of turns and the inductance, you'd get a 'normal' reading.

 

[orpheo]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

One thing worth pointing out is that if the spec is +/- 5% that's a much larger number the higher the DCR.

So a 16.4k spec can go from about 15.5-17.2 (yes technically that particular JB is out of spec)

But sinister you say you've wound pickups and "never had them be more than 1k off" while referring to various 42AWG pickups you've made under 10k. Well, on an 8k spec, a 5% tolerance would be +/- 0.4k, whereas on a 16k spec +/-5% is 0.8k. So don't get hung up by the number of the delta, but the percentage of the delta.

Here's another thing that will blow some people's minds. Everyone thinks if they get a pickup with a higher DCR that its hotter. In other words you think that a JB that reads 17.5k is hotter than one that reads 15.5k. But assuming both pickups have the exact same number of turns, it means the 17.5k was either stretched too tightly, or the wire was a little thinner off the spool. In both cases that could actually make the 17.5k pickup weaker and thinner! The 15.5k pickup has more copper on it. Thicker diameter wire. It would be the stronger, more open one, less whiney.

Now that's not a guarantee. Not in the least. A pickup can read high if only a small part is thin. It's not a guarantee the 15.5k is louder or stronger, I'm just pointing out that IF the number of turns are identical, a higher DCR doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.

NO, that's not true. Higher DC always means higher output. How could you not know that? :18:

 

[LtKojak]

Re: SH-4 DCR measurement no where near what is listed.

NO, that's not true. Higher DC always means higher output. How could you not know that? :18:

Sarcasm should be written in purple, or the statement could be used against you in a Forum, most probably taken out of context.