sharp intonation and heavy strings....

[stonabus]

i play with 12's. (on my toronado)
my e,a, and strings are sharp with the saddles all the way back. (no room left to tighten)
if i switch to 9's (i really dont like light strings) will i finally get them to pitch?
its driving me nuts. chords sound fine, but when i noodle around the 12th fret with blues scales and stuff, i can hear that it is NOT in tune up there.

does this happen with heavy strings?
any help would be appreciated.
thanks guys.

 

[Loserchief]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

try turning the saddles on those string around. This way you will get some additional space to tighten them and it doesn't affect the tone.

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

i play with 12's. (on my toronado)
my e,a, and strings are sharp with the saddles all the way back. (no room left to tighten)
if i switch to 9's (i really dont like light strings) will i finally get them to pitch?
its driving me nuts. chords sound fine, but when i noodle around the 12th fret with blues scales and stuff, i can hear that it is NOT in tune up there.

does this happen with heavy strings?
any help would be appreciated.
thanks guys.

It seems that your Problem are just suboptimal adjusted saddles...
Move the saddles around (in the direction of the neck; if you pull them back tune down the strings just a bit so they wont snap and tune them up again when you're finished... it's time consuming though)

 

[XSSIVE]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

nevermind me...i'm backwards today...

-Mike

 

[Zerberus]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

XSSIVE, are you sure?

I´ve never seen a guitar where shortening the string makes it intonate flatter, and lengthening it makes it sharper. And according to the laws of physics (and their application here), it´s not even a theoretical possibility....or am I completely misunderstanding you??

To the issue at hand:

Is the nut ok on those strings? If it´s too high it´s probably not be the root cause of the problem, but WILL compound it.

Is the guitar in standard tuning? The lower you tune, the stronger the string gets stretched (in relation), and the longer the string has to be to intonate properly. THis is why many guitars built with downtunung in mind have their Bridge moved a bit back, like the Caparison Dellinger HGS ..http://www.kyowashokai.co.jp/caparison english/caparison-dellinger-hgs.html

String guage itself has no REAL effect on intonation, assuming the brand and model are the same. This is because the relation of winds to core, and most importantly the exact alloy of the core /plain strings, is much more important. It´s not something you´ll find out easily, nor is it necessary to know. But it IS the main reason that the intonation is adjustable together with altered tunings. But most users of heavy strings also downtune, and that´s the reason that many manufacturers (like Caparison) inadvertently attribute it to the string guage and not the tuning

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

It's not unheard of that a saddle runs out of adjustment, usually on the low E or G.
Zerb is right. If you don't understand intonation, see the Intonation thread in the Vault. When you change gauge, it scrambles the intonation slightly, even moreso with a gauge as heavy as 12's. I think you may have 2 problems.

1. Most likely, you didn't widen the nut slot to accomodate the fatter strings, so the string is riding a bit high. When you fret around the 1-3 frets, you're bending the string a bit sharp.

2. Assuming the nut is perfect, the truss rod is straight, and the action is good, it's possible that the scale length from nut to saddle was only designed for 8's - 11's.
There's always that possibility that the Toronado wasn't calibrated properly for 12's or thicker. I'm pretty sure you'll be fine if you back it down to 11-49. If you have problems with that gauge, see a tech. There's always the remote possibility that your bridge wasn't put on correctly at the factory.

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

i play with 12's. (on my toronado)
my e,a, and strings are sharp with the saddles all the way back. (no room left to tighten)
if i switch to 9's (i really dont like light strings) will i finally get them to pitch?
its driving me nuts. chords sound fine, but when i noodle around the 12th fret with blues scales and stuff, i can hear that it is NOT in tune up there.

does this happen with heavy strings?
any help would be appreciated.
thanks guys.

If the string is going sharp, then you'll want to use heavier strings, not lighter. Try lowering the action by lowering the bridge, that should solve it.

 

[XSSIVE]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

didn't i mention that today is backwards day...lol

ok i had a major brainfart when i wrote that...i've set inotation many times with no problems and you would think i would be able to write down how it's done the correct way but i wrote it down backwards...so, ignore that...wow i feel like an ass hahaha

-Mike

 

[gOgIver]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

Is the nut ok on those strings? If it´s too high it´s probably not be the root cause of the problem, but WILL compound it.

Is the guitar in standard tuning? The lower you tune, the stronger the string gets stretched (in relation), and the longer the string has to be to intonate properly. THis is why many guitars built with downtunung in mind have their Bridge moved a bit back, like the Caparison Dellinger HGS ..http://www.kyowashokai.co.jp/caparison english/caparison-dellinger-hgs.html

String guage itself has no REAL effect on intonation, assuming the brand and model are the same. This is because the relation of winds to core, and most importantly the exact alloy of the core /plain strings, is much more important. It´s not something you´ll find out easily, nor is it necessary to know. But it IS the main reason that the intonation is adjustable together with altered tunings. But most users of heavy strings also downtune, and that´s the reason that many manufacturers (like Caparison) inadvertently attribute it to the string guage and not the tuning

Zerb, what do you mean by "The lower you tune, the stronger the string gets stretched" ?

And can you elaborate on this following point further please (in terms of string tension/intonation say going to/from 10's to 11's)?

"String guage itself has no REAL effect on intonation, assuming the brand and model are the same. This is because the relation of winds to core, and most importantly the exact alloy of the core /plain strings, is much more important."

 

[stonabus]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

(sigh)..i understand that by bringing the saddle back (away from neck) lengthens the strings, thus making the string flatter. if you fret the 12th fret and the string is sharp, you need to lengthen the string. :22: that being said, wouldnt high action mean the same? if its (action) higher, its longer. right? im going to check out some lighter gauge strings. i think the toronado was meant for 09's. unless i get it "set up", i dont think the heavys will work for this guitar.
thanks for the input.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: sharp intonation and heavy strings....

Zerb, what do you mean by "The lower you tune, the stronger the string gets stretched" ?

If you take a string, and tune it lower, the tension increase is larger when fretting, requiring a longer string length to compensate.

To see what I mean, take any string, tune it to standard, now fret a note (watching a tuner the whole time). Now tune it down a whole step, fret the same place (not note), and watch the tuner be a few cents high (assuming it was spot on before)...

And can you elaborate on this following point further please (in terms of string tension/intonation say going to/from 10's to 11's)?

"String guage itself has no REAL effect on intonation, assuming the brand and model are the same. This is because the relation of winds to core, and most importantly the exact alloy of the core /plain strings, is much more important."

Not without getting heavily theoretical (in my luthier studies, this was a topic for about 4 weeks, along with other things of course....)

This might help for starters....although the chances of a layman understanding most of it are, admittedly, a bit sllim. A good interest in Physics will help more

http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Table_of_Contents.pdf
http://www.morris.umn.edu/~sboyd/class1061.htm + http://www.morris.umn.edu/~sboyd/class1061_files/String instruments/String instruments.htm
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ray.tomes/maths.html
http://dev.nsta.org/ssc/pdf/v4-1018t.pdf