Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

guitfiddle

guitfiddle

firstlessonologist
What exactly are the differences in the circuits/tone, and why are folks just chompin' at the bit to "blackface" the silverface amps? Also,why are Master Volume controls frowned upon?
I ask these questions because I got to play my '78 LP through a Silverface from 1979, and it was Heavenly...why would the non-master blackface be so much more desireable?

Many thanks to the amp gurus who chime in on this one. :notworthy:yourock:
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

guitfiddle said:
What exactly are the differences in the circuits/tone, and why are folks just chompin' at the bit to "blackface" the silverface amps? Also,why are Master Volume controls frowned upon?
I ask these questions because I got to play my '78 LP through a Silverface from 1979, and it was Heavenly...why would the non-master blackface be so much more desireable?

Many thanks to the amp gurus who chime in on this one. :notworthy:yourock:
Click to expand...

The master volume Silver face amps are much less desirable than a non master simply because they sound thin and brittle by comparison. By comparison to a new amp, they are not so bad, but the Fender early Silverface amps are as good as some blackface amps. I am not an amp tech, nor am I one that can comment in great detail of the circuit differences.
But I do own a 67 Deluxe Reverb and a 68 Super Reveb...... both are drip edge amps and they are both wonderful. I have had my Super for at least 15 years and the Deluxe about 3. The Super was my main amp for 10+ years and I still use for certain things. The Deluxe, for small rooms is one of if not the best blues amp out there. It lacks headroom at only 22 watts, but aside from that it is a fantastic little amp.

The Master volume amps made by Fender came out sometime around '75 it could be earlier... not sure, but there were many changes in addition to the master volume that deteriorated the tone significantly. The early silvers are much more desireable. The first issue silvers are in essence blackface amps with a silver plate.

The only real way to answer your questions is you need to play through a blackface amp and a silver and see what you hear as tonal difference. As much as I love my silvers I have played through many blackface amps that just smoke the silvers in headroom, tone and overall character.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

I've had a SF Pro Reverb (1973) for about 15-16 years. It's not my main amp and hasn't been for some time 'cause it doesn't do hi-gain. Bt plug a strat or a tele into it with a TS9 or two in between when you need that mid gain blues grind...set the volume at 4 1/2-6 and you'd be filling a club with some of the best Fender sound you've ever heard. Humbuckers...not so good but man the amp loves singles.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

I'm not sure if it's par for the course for all Fenders but the vibrato channel on my Deluxe hates humbuckers. If you turn it up it gets buzzy and ugly sounding, or if you put a pedal in front of it. Great for low vol clean though.

The normal channel is perfect for cranked blues stuff.

So I just use an A/B to switch from clean (vibrato) to dirty (normal with TS in front).
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

ModestCargo said:
I'm not sure if it's par for the course for all Fenders but the vibrato channel on my Deluxe hates humbuckers. If you turn it up it gets buzzy and ugly sounding, or if you put a pedal in front of it. Great for low vol clean though.

The normal channel is perfect for cranked blues stuff.

So I just use an A/B to switch from clean (vibrato) to dirty (normal with TS in front).
Click to expand...

Is it a DRRI? If so it probably has a bad solder joint. The RI Fenders are using circuit boards, where the originals had the tube sockets wired to the chasis. There are other differences as well, but with a few basic mods the RI amps can sound good. I don't think they will ever sound as good as the real deal though.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

There are several different SF Pro Reverb amps...

They went to a SF in VERY late 67 and the 67 and 68 SF Pro Reverbs are THE SAME as the BF Pro Revrebs amps with the exception of the SF...to be honest the 69 and early 70 models are pretty miuch the same as well however by 69 Fender had started using slightly cheaper parts and they were getting sloppy wiht the internal build...crappy lead dress and such. Also by 1970 they had started actually glueing in thte baffle board where before they were scrrewed in like thay had been since the late 40's. They also started the switch from using mostly Jensen speakers to lesser quality speakers and soeakers that IMO don't sound as good...you'll see a lot of Oxford speakers in this era amps and Oxfords are often called Oxfarts for a reason! Also by 1970 or so the cabs started being made from junk woods and made with MUCH cheaper construction techniques.

Now, keep in mind thee changes were made to ALL Fender amps, not just the pro...

Now, the master volumes came later...by the time of the master volumes CBS had really started cheaping out on the amp itself plus they were changing the circuts as well and IMO these changes were NOT for the better...the bias circut got changed to a terrible design, those Fender master volumes are terrible...CBS amps are often louder. cleaner and brighter than theri pre CBS counterparts and often lack a smooth overdrive and the beautiful natural compression Fender amps are known for.

Now, also in the case of the Twin Reverb, Dual Showman, Quad, Super Six, Pro Reverb abd Super reverb sometime in the 70's (I belive 76) Fender really changed those circuts and went to an Ultra Linear (UL) design...this made them MUCH cleaner and much louder and also upped the wattages to 135 watts for the big amps and 70's for the Pro and Super...now, thats not to say that all UL amps sound bad but the Fenders sure do!

Now, all that said...if you played through a 79 Pro reverb and dug it, get it and roll with it!
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

It sure did sound good to me...and compared to the stuff sitting in the local GC, it was a breath of fresh air. I don't really need a new amp, as I have a Musicman HD-150 which I think sounds great, but it would be nice, and the SF Pros are half the going price of the BF amps. Might just have to suck it up and save my coin a bit longer, eh?
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

I think you really should try nd find an early SF Pro reverb or maybe even a BF just to compare to...a BF/early SF Pro reverb is a great amp.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

I think the ranking system of desirability among Fender amps goes something like this:
1.) Tweed
2.) Brown
3.) Black
4.) Modern
5.) Silver
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

baritone said:
I think the ranking system of desirability among Fender amps goes something like this:
1.) Tweed
2.) Brown
3.) Black
4.) Modern
5.) Silver
Click to expand...

I guess its a matter of opinion. My order would be:

1. Black
2. Tweed
3. Silver
4. Brown

I would never buy a "modern" Fender if I could help it. IMHO for a little more than a "New" Fender you can get a really good silver or in some cases a Black.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

It would seem like, in terms of price, that it goes

Tweed
Black
Brown
Modern/Silver

So, how hard is it, and how much would it cost me, to BF a Silver?
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

Let's say it's the low-man on the totem pole...worst example. what's it take to make it good?
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

FWIW here's the schematic for a '79 Pro Reverb. The Blackface circuit was the AA165. You can see how many "Pro Reverb" circuits there were at Schematic Heaven

Short version is that the '79 has solid state rectification, significantly higher voltages in the power section, and a less-than-perfect master volume. 70 watts vs. only 40 for the Blackface circuit. The bias circuit allows you to balance the bias voltage between the two power tubes instead of allowing adjustment of the bias voltage overall. That's not necessarily "bad" until you try to insert a bias vary tremelo into the circuit. I don't know exactly what would happen if you had two tubes that were significantly different, but imagine that it would not necessarily sound good. BTW the opto-oscillator tremelo is just like the BF Deluxe Reverb, etc. and can have problems with age.

All that said, if you found a '79 Pro Reverb that gives you that tone in your head, then go for it!

HTH

Chip
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

Fresh_Start said:
All that said, if you found a '79 Pro Reverb that gives you that tone in your head, then go for it!

HTH

Chip
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's THE tone, but by God, it was better than any other amp I've ever played through...every now and then I had to turn around and just grin like a fool at the sound coming off of that thing. I ran it with the Master on 3-1/2, and the volume on 8 and I was, frankly, amazed. I must just have a virgin ear to the really good tones, huh? Cause it made the current crop of amps in my whole world view seem lame, but for my Musicman, which might stink in the real world, but is great to me.
If the Blackface Pros are as much better than the Silver amps as the Silver faces are to EVERYTHING these days in my price range, I better get to socking the dough away. This is a bummer, as I'm mostly gassing for a Tele these days.:banghead:
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

I have a silver face '72 twin reverb with a master volume. I don't know what their deal is either. I like having the master volume because that means I can overdrive the channel without ripping the speakers a new one. But beyond that, I like how my silver face is just real clean and beautiful. Amps are amps and all ears are different. That and not everything that's older is inherently better.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

Fresh_Start said:
TwinReverb - have you ever had any problems with power tube bias on your Twin Reverb? Does the tremelo ("Vibrato") work well for you?

I'd really appreciate your input.

Chip

P.S. This probably is the schematic for your amp: http://www.schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/twin_reverb_sf_100_schem.pdf
Click to expand...

No problems here: I love my tremolo, it's natural sounding and beautiful. I don't do repairs on my own amp right now: I have it fixed for me. So far it's not expensive, and even then, if you must, you can buy tubes in matched pairs, which was the intent of Fender.
 
Re: Silverface VS Blackface~~~Pro Reverb

The master volume control in silverface Fenders changes the tone of the amp slightly...even when it's on 10. It's a 1 million ohm ohm pot = 1M. I've been told that the master volume control acts like a 1 million ohm grid load resistor on the phase invertor tube, and that's a grid load that is not there on a non-master volume amp. Also, the 60's amps have differant transformers than the 70's amps: lower output output transformers, differant rectifier tube and lower voltages from the power transformers in the blackface and early silverface versions.

So, although the master volume silverface Fenders can sound really great, the non master volume versions sound just a little bit greater, IMO.

Lew
 
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