Slotted poles vs hex poles

[Mincer]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

It is one thing to debate the science. But let's stop with any personal insults. Remember, if you are just here to argue a point and not add anything to the thread, move on.

 

[VirtuAlex]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Hola Pepe!

Trate de mandarte un PM pero tenes la casilla llena y me fue rebotado. Como hago para contactarte?

Gracias!

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Well I have seen graphs and lots of technical info but it doesn't really translate into anything other than theory for me. I need to hear it.

:fing2:

 

[EDX]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

discussion science is something very important, and can grant really useful results but only when the persons discussing it are of similar level of knowledge about the matter, when s doesn't happen it can only have 2 possible outcomes, 1 is the expert teaching the matter ignorant person and this person gathering factual verified knowledge or the matter ignorant person acting with preponderance and fighting to keep it's ignorance denying facts provided and denying to investigate the factual data provided by the expert, thus making it a useless and stressing work for the expert.

what i'm here is to backup the statement that the form of the magnet or it's magnetic conductor channel (a pole piece on this case) matters and does affect the magnetic flux geometry

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Yeah but as we've been saying, that's more attributed to the difference in length. So you can accomplish a similar thing with 6 long (PAF length) slot head poles by cutting the 3 wound string poles closer and/or flush to the baseplate. Inductance shifts from the alloys being different from one another won't really be isolated to the area surrounding those specific pole pieces. That will be global.

Thank you, Frank!

This is the simplified version I have in my head now. Is it "probably correct most of the time" assuming all other factors are equal?
Shorter poles = brighter/tighter for that string (and maybe the ones next to them), longer = opposite
Smaller diameter = tighter/brighter, wider = opposite (not sure about this one?)
Different material poles = changes sound of whole pickup in ways difficult to predict

The first one (short vs. long) is really the one that matters to me - you're making my next pickup selection easier if this is correct.

And again, thank you for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.

I don't understand why anyone engages with that other person. Just ignore.

 

[vinnie1971]

Slotted poles vs hex poles

Thanks everyone, slowly digesting this technical information and it seems the longer thinner fillisters are going to work in my favour.
I will do one coil per pickup at a time to hear the difference before doing the whole pickup in case the change is too extreme.

I am curious to hear the effect on the original ceramics- it might cure the harshness of them so I might not need the ALNICO mags at all? Mind you I really like the A8 A4 combo.

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[darthphineas]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Shorter poles = brighter/tighter for that string (and maybe the ones next to them), longer = opposite
Smaller diameter = tighter/brighter, wider = opposite (not sure about this one?)
Different material poles = changes sound of whole pickup in ways difficult to predict

The first one (short vs. long) is really the one that matters to me - you're making my next pickup selection easier if this is correct.

sort of like I was talking about on the 1st page, with regard to length and alloy types:

imagine the longer poles stretching the magnetic field out bigger, but down. you know, since the extra length is down below the bobbins and baseplate. shorter poles keep the field smaller. typically, the shorter pole will produce a tighter character.

if you want an apples to apples, find out what alloy the poles are made from (good luck on that) and buy yourself a handful. then snip them down to a few different lengths. let's say snip on right at the bottom of the baseplate and another halfway. then swap them out and listen to the difference. or... do a little research on the different types of pole alloys, buy some of each that are of interest, and try them out.

the diameter of the poles will be a VERY difficult parameter for variance. the thread pitch is already set, leaving the size of the head of the screw... if even applicable. too big and it won't fit... or it will, if you want to deform the hole. too small and you have a gap from crud to build up and potentially get down in the coils. honestly, I'd leave the diameter factor alone.

Mojotone has different filister pole piece options to choose from. see if they meet your requirements, then try some experimentation, and let everyone know what your ears tell you.

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

sort of like I was talking about on the 1st page, with regard to length and alloy types:



the diameter of the poles will be a VERY difficult parameter for variance. the thread pitch is already set, leaving the size of the head of the screw... if even applicable. too big and it won't fit... or it will, if you want to deform the hole. too small and you have a gap from crud to build up and potentially get down in the coils. honestly, I'd leave the diameter factor alone.

Mojotone has different filister pole piece options to choose from. see if they meet your requirements, then try some experimentation, and let everyone know what your ears tell you.

I thought about that diameter issue. My bobbin holes are 5mm threaded and the fillisters I have in order have 5 mm head. Hopefully they will fit fine. I plan on placing the keeper bar tight under the bobbin as I screw the fillisters in.


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[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

I see people saying this guy that knows nothing should defer to the expert. Here's a good quote from Carl Sagan "One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else." If Frank Falbo doesn't have actual proof, then he's on the same level as the rest of us who also have no proof. If you choose to take him at his word, I certainly can't stop you, but at the same time you can't fault me for agreeing with Carl Sagan on this one. I know pretty everybody here loves Frank and I'm not going to win a popularity contest, but you really need to hear both sides.

BTW, I agree with everything that has been said about pole piece length, diameter and alloy, I only take issue with the significance of the head shape. Ultimately, some section of string gets magnetized, the string wiggles when plucked, and magnetic "change" through the coils gives you a voltage. The question is does the a slotted head somehow magnetize the string different enough from a hex head to change the sound. The physics says no. To get a change in tone, you need specific things to change, a) time varying effects (eddy currents, resonant peaks) or b) a different balance of harmonic content (pickup position, pickup width), and maybe c) microphonic effects. If you're talking about a change where none of these things would change, then there's no physical reason to believe it changes the tone. I've seen it said "everything effects the tone" especially by those who are overly concerned with vintage correctness, but that's just not true. Some things effect the tone, some things don't. When you think about the pros and cons of slotted versus hex screws, keep in mind that Seth Lover wanted two slug coils. The screws were someone else's idea.

 

[EDX]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

well, there's proofs, and i can give you proofs, but if i just outright give them to you rather than send you to investigate it will be a useless effort, humans learn by error and trial, error and trial is the very definition of scientific method, and scientific method is dependant on investigation, you will learn only by investigating it by yourself rather than asking for charts, results and numbers on internet forums.

frank being an authority is rather a magnified extension as he more than an academic authority is just a guy whose eats from understanding all the principles of electromagnetism and putting them to practice, due to his work and great ahold of knowledge we regard him as an authority on the matter

just do a deep dive on electromagnetic theory trying to determinate and prove all the factors that affect it regardless of the quantitative impact of their effect, after you got your own conclusions from experimentation go and talk to your nearest electronics / electric engineer on sight about the matter and head back here to report your conclusions

"...The test of all knowledge is experiment. Experiment is the sole judge of scientific “truth”."

-Richard Feynman


some interesting introductory level readings for you

http://strong-rare-earth-magnets.com/why-are-there-so-many-different-shapes-of-magnets/

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/gallery/imageset.html

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2014...affect-the-magnetic-force-of-permanent-magnet


for a more in deep level reading head to your nearest universitary physics book

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Do you expect me to just take your word for it?

Well, yeah. Others do, because they know I'm not just making stuff up. I've actually done it, and you have not. Furthermore, that's kind of what people do when someone who has experienced something, and works in the field, tells them about it.

You should not fault someone for maintaining a healthy skepticism.

Look I don't mean this as an insult, in the way that others have been more raw with you here, but its not healthy skepticism. You have people who have done most of the things that get discussed here, and you repeatedly argue with them, telling them that their experiences don't comport with the laws of physics, and therefore their ears, hands, amplifiers, overdrive pedals, are basically lying to them. But when you do it to me, you're really also saying that I'm lying to people. That's really the heart of it. I say something about pole pieces, and what you're characterizing as skepticism eventually is calling me a liar or a fool.

If Frank Falbo doesn't have actual proof, then he's on the same level as the rest of us who also have no proof.

No, I'm not. And Carl Sagan would back me up on that one. One of us has done the thing, the other has not done the thing. Immediately that puts us on different levels.

You keep challenging me to provide some kind of proof for things...that's not why I'm here. We're not at university, and I'm not your professor, nor are you paying me for an education. You haven't funded my research. We're just trying to help people make satisfying sounds and enjoy their musical experience. Whatever I can do to help, within the boundaries of some of my agreements, I will.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

some interesting introductory level readings for you

http://strong-rare-earth-magnets.com/why-are-there-so-many-different-shapes-of-magnets/

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/gallery/imageset.html

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2014...affect-the-magnetic-force-of-permanent-magnet


for a more in deep level reading head to your nearest universitary physics book

I've done a "deep dive" into electromagnetic theory, and that's why I said this:

BTW, I agree with everything that has been said about pole piece length, diameter and alloy, I only take issue with the significance of the head shape. Ultimately, some section of string gets magnetized, the string wiggles when plucked, and magnetic "change" through the coils gives you a voltage. The question is does the a slotted head somehow magnetize the string different enough from a hex head to change the sound. The physics says no. To get a change in tone, you need specific things to change, a) time varying effects (eddy currents, resonant peaks) or b) a different balance of harmonic content (pickup position, pickup width), and maybe c) microphonic effects. If you're talking about a change where none of these things would change, then there's no physical reason to believe it changes the tone.

Do you disagree with the above?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Well, yeah. Others do, because they know I'm not just making stuff up. I've actually done it, and you have not. Furthermore, that's kind of what people do when someone who has experienced something, and works in the field, tells them about it.

Look I don't mean this as an insult, in the way that others have been more raw with you here, but its not healthy skepticism. You have people who have done most of the things that get discussed here, and you repeatedly argue with them, telling them that their experiences don't comport with the laws of physics, and therefore their ears, hands, amplifiers, overdrive pedals, are basically lying to them. But when you do it to me, you're really also saying that I'm lying to people. That's really the heart of it. I say something about pole pieces, and what you're characterizing as skepticism eventually is calling me a liar or a fool.

No, I'm not. And Carl Sagan would back me up on that one. One of us has done the thing, the other has not done the thing. Immediately that puts us on different levels.

You keep challenging me to provide some kind of proof for things...that's not why I'm here. We're not at university, and I'm not your professor, nor are you paying me for an education. You haven't funded my research. We're just trying to help people make satisfying sounds and enjoy their musical experience. Whatever I can do to help, within the boundaries of some of my agreements, I will.

Look, I just want to talk about pickups and how they work. The fact that you disagree with me is not proof that I am wrong... that's all I am saying. "Slotted poles vs hex poles", that's the topic of the thread, that's all I care about here.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Look, I just want to talk about pickups and how they work. The fact that you disagree with me is not proof that I am wrong... that's all I am saying. "Slotted poles vs hex poles", that's the topic of the thread, that's all I care about here.

And yet you haven't gone out and spent <$10 on pole pieces and tried it out, but you're pretty sure I'm wrong. :laughing: I'm conceding that it's subtle, and smaller than some length and alloy deltas, but it's not nothing.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

It is one thing to debate the science. But let's stop with any personal insults. Remember, if you are just here to argue a point and not add anything to the thread, move on.

So, it's ok for thanaton to insult others, and tolerate his relentless efforts to destroy the best and brightest contributors, but when somebody fights back the abuse, gets called or even suspended?

If the guy was physically in the same room with me, and treated me as he does to everybody, he'd be collecting invalidity pension in less than thirty seconds flat.

Can we ask to ban a person by popular vote? My hand is raised with the first vote.

Who's with me? MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!!

 

[LLL]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Hey, have y'all heard the latest from "The Killer" (Jerry Lee Lewis)?

"Whole Lotta Pole Measurin' Goin' On" :knockedou

:lol:

 

[devastone]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

FWIW, I wouldn't argue with Einstein about relativity, Tesla on electricity, or Falbo on pickups. Honestly, I think it is awesome that Frank posts here, he is probably one of a small handful of people who has done the actual objective research as well as playing them and has been involved in the design of some of the most innovative pickups in production today, both at Duncan and Fluence.

And of course, he can't publish his data, in the business world that is called IP (intellectual property) and is usually covered under an NDA (non-disclosure agreement), not to mention, it's just not a good idea to give away your livelyhood. I also wouldn't expect him to put together a dissertation on his research to post on a forum, probably not a good use of his time. But, I think it's great that he will get on here an say "based on my research ________".

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Look, I just want to talk about pickups and how they work.

No, you don't. That's the absolute last thing you want.

You can't weasel your way out of this one.

 

[vinnie1971]

Slotted poles vs hex poles

Look, I just want to talk about pickups and how they work. The fact that you disagree with me is not proof that I am wrong... that's all I am saying. "Slotted poles vs hex poles", that's the topic of the thread, that's all I care about here.

Sorry I accidentally clicked like on this thread hijack while scrolling down


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[beaubrummels]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

You either provide details on the tests you perform, methods and findings, so that they may be reviewed by your peers (or whoever)... or you don't. To date, you haven't.

From all evidence on this forum, you aren't a peer here. You've never conducted a controlled experiment nor produced and posted measurable meaningful results for review, nor demonstrated any experience with musical instruments or electronics.