Slotted poles vs hex poles

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

And yet you haven't gone out and spent <$10 on pole pieces and tried it out, but you're pretty sure I'm wrong. :laughing: I'm conceding that it's subtle, and smaller than some length and alloy deltas, but it's not nothing.

I have tried it. Just because I haven't mentioned it doesn't mean I haven't tried it.

I did put forth a physics based argument for my position, but nobody wants to discuss the merits of that. It's 'who are you to question Frank Falbo???' and 'have you tried it yourself???' . Premiere electric guitar pickup forum right here.

 

[devastone]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Actually, I've questioned Frank before, there's no problem with that, discussions are one of the great things about forums. Arguing for the sake of arguing, eh, nobody benefits from that.

But yeah, I do respect Frank and consider him an expert in the field, and I admit I'm not, nor at this point, do I want to be, and honestly, he does have the credentials to prove that he is. Maybe if you enlighten us about your accomplishments in pickup innovation we will reconsider, although I'm afraid attitude may still be a stumbling block.

There is an old saying "respect isn't given, it's earned".

Back to the original question, I have replaced slotted screws with black hex heads in a few different pickups, most recently a 7-string Tone Zone/Air Norton set, although the steels were very similar, I can't claim that the were the exact same material and I will say that, to me, while it may have tightened up the low end a little on the 7-string TZ, it was very subtle and definitely not the first thing I would go chasing if I wanted to make noticeable changes to my tone. Still, I can see how the shape of the screw head could affect the shape of the magnetic field and better ears than mine may notice it more, for me, while it is cheap to try, if I want a noticeable change I will look elsewhere, still looks cooler, at least in my ice cream.

I remember reading 20 years ago about cutting down the length of the screws to tighten the sound, which was confirmed here.

And Frank, you can paypal me the $20 we discussed for the cred building. :bs2:

 

[EDX]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

I've done a "deep dive" into electromagnetic theory, and that's why I said this:



Do you disagree with the above?

once you start saying slot head won't do difference i disagree, clearly you didn't even take a look to the links on my post, second link illustrates the sometimes slight sometimes drastic changes on magnetic flux from having ferric materials in the way of magnets, their shape does impact the magnetic field flux, the impact is measurable, and it's determined by the mass, mass core distribution and overall shape of the ferric material, and pole pieces impact pickups tone from 2 flanks, on the magnetic one by altering the field flux geometry and on the coil induction, take on that humbuckers have 2 coils so that's 2 sets of pole pieces and you can get why the effect of pole pieces is so determining to pickup tone

no one here really has the duty to teach you, that is the work of professors, high school and university professors, and with such attitude not even them will care on waste their time trying to discuss or even trying to teach you, so with that on mind don't expect frank nor anyone here to doing the work of providing you data, researches or experiments to back up anything, it AIN'T OUR WORK, we won't get no benefit from spamming knowledge that was expensive and/or hard for us to gather, we might share our conclusions and general rule like assertions, but we won't share all that hard earned data for free as we just can't, you can't get it? nice that means you haven't make an investigation worth enough to protect it, you haven't got to the academic level where all your in deep specific knowledge has a value and just giving it away will mean starving, or that you simply aren't good enough on anything to justify charging for doing that something

we won't waste ourselves trying to teach you, but we can totally kill some stress by roasting you.... never doubt that.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

once you start saying slot head won't do difference i disagree, clearly you didn't even take a look to the links on my post, second link illustrates the sometimes slight sometimes drastic changes on magnetic flux from having ferric materials in the way of magnets, their shape does impact the magnetic field flux, the impact is measurable, and it's determined by the mass, mass core distribution and overall shape of the ferric material, and pole pieces impact pickups tone from 2 flanks, on the magnetic one by altering the field flux geometry and on the coil induction, take on that humbuckers have 2 coils so that's 2 sets of pole pieces and you can get why the effect of pole pieces is so determining to pickup tone

I looked at that second link, which magnetic diagram therein do you think resembles the difference between a slot head and hex head? If your point is that screws make a difference, I don't disagree, but we're talking about one small part of the screw, and we ought to be clear about what the difference is. Just because a difference exists doesn't mean that the difference will manifest as something you will hear come away from the pickup.

If you look at all the differences that are known to matter, there are variations with respect to time (reactances), and variations with respect to harmonic content (nodes, comb filtering), so the question is, how does the screw head shape change impact either of these things, if so, how so, and if not, why do you expect that it will effect the tone, even though it has no bearing on those factors?

It very easy to state how and why a typical PAF sounds different than a Strat pickup because of those factors I mentioned, the time dependent magnetic reactances are very different, and one pickup reads the string at one point, the other reads it at two, so we're working with known principles, where does the screw head shape fit in to this picture? This is not an unreasonable question... it's the next logical question.

no one here really has the duty to teach you, that is the work of professors, high school and university professors, and with such attitude not even them will care on waste their time trying to discuss or even trying to teach you, so with that on mind don't expect frank nor anyone here to doing the work of providing you data, researches or experiments to back up anything, it AIN'T OUR WORK, we won't get no benefit from spamming knowledge that was expensive and/or hard for us to gather, we might share our conclusions and general rule like assertions, but we won't share all that hard earned data for free as we just can't, you can't get it? nice that means you haven't make an investigation worth enough to protect it, you haven't got to the academic level where all your in deep specific knowledge has a value and just giving it away will mean starving, or that you simply aren't good enough on anything to justify charging for doing that something

we won't waste ourselves trying to teach you, but we can totally kill some stress by roasting you.... never doubt that.

I just want to talk about pickups, I don't care about the preaching, the insults, etc. It's of no interest to me.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Hola Pepe!

Trate de mandarte un PM pero tenes la casilla llena y me fue rebotado. Como hago para contactarte?

Gracias!

Necesitas al menos 10 mensajes para poder utilizar el PM.

Escribeme a esta casilla postale "g.c.d.b. @ email.it", eliminando los puntos y los espacios.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

I have tried it. Just because I haven't mentioned it doesn't mean I haven't tried it

Do you expect me to believe this statement at face value?

As long as you don't post proof, it can be considered that it never happened.

I don't think you even own a guitar, let alone being able to play it.

It must be the mold in the basement you live in the cause of this years-long hallucination you may refer to as "life".

 

[EDX]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

wow pepe no tenía idea que hablaras (escribieras ) español

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

wow pepe no tenía idea que hablaras (escribieras ) español

Born and raised in Buenos Aires, mom and dad were italian. Spanish is my mother tongue, although from the six languages I speak, it's actually english the one I feel most comfortable with.
Hablo español - Je parle francais - Parlo italiano - Ich Spreche Deutsch - I speak english - Jeg taler Dansk (danish)

Some might say it's a shame to know so many languages but have nothing to say!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

I see people saying this guy that knows nothing should defer to the expert. Here's a good quote from Carl Sagan "One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else." If Frank Falbo doesn't have actual proof, then he's on the same level as the rest of us who also have no proof. If you choose to take him at his word, I certainly can't stop you, but at the same time you can't fault me for agreeing with Carl Sagan on this one.

WOW! Confirmation bias much...?

BTW, I agree with everything that has been said about pole piece length, diameter and alloy, I only take issue with the significance of the head shape. Ultimately, some section of string gets magnetized, the string wiggles when plucked, and magnetic "change" through the coils gives you a voltage. The question is does the a slotted head somehow magnetize the string different enough from a hex head to change the sound. The physics says no. To get a change in tone, you need specific things to change, a) time varying effects (eddy currents, resonant peaks) or b) a different balance of harmonic content (pickup position, pickup width), and maybe c) microphonic effects. If you're talking about a change where none of these things would change, then there's no physical reason to believe it changes the tone. I've seen it said "everything effects the tone" especially by those who are overly concerned with vintage correctness, but that's just not true. Some things effect the tone, some things don't. When you think about the pros and cons of slotted versus hex screws, keep in mind that Seth Lover wanted two slug coils. The screws were someone else's idea.

WOW! You REALLY love confirmation bias, don't you? Confirmation bias v. 2.0 It Starts Again much...again?

Unfortunately for you, everything you say and everything you think you know has any value whatsoever. You cried wolf far too many times and proved wrong every single time to be taken seriously. You are the one denying all the evidence set upon. Hence, the value of any word you've eve posted had, has and will have a value even inferior to absolute zero. You should get out of that molded basement every once in a while. Vampires are not out to get you, I promise!

 

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Do you have anything better to do?

 

[vinnie1971]

Slotted poles vs hex poles

The question is not so much about the shape it concerns mass and proximity to the strings - hex poles take mass away from the string a slot head has more mass near the string.

I have a layman's understanding of this and understand like length pole diameter and the head of a pole all have a role to play in determining the size and shape of the magnetic field and eddy currents. So deferring to the knowledgeable experts here I wanted to know if this is worthwhile trying out as by the time I have bought new keeper bars, spacers, different pole type, pickup tape that's more than a few pennies.
So thanks all whose informative inputs into this thread have prompted me to part with some coinage to buy several tiles of pole to experiment and see if I can get the results I am looking for.

So thank you especially to Frank Falbo and Lt Kojak whose knowledge has been very helpful and I am grateful such knowledgeable people come to this forum and share - it's a gift of generosity I am thankful for.

But it's been painful scrolling past the trolling to read the meaningful and useful information from the experts in their field.

I am certain that the results of my experiments to tweak the tone will confirm with what the Frank and others have kindly shared.


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[darthphineas]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

The question is not so much about the shape it concerns mass and proximity to the strings - hex poles take mass away from the string a slot head has more mass near the string.

Exactly. And it will. Depending on the pickup and how much or little gain used, you may or may not hear much of a difference. That's really why it's a good idea to drop a few $ on an assortment of poles and experiment.

Also, nobody becomes a journeyman without being a layman. Or as his Royal Badness would say "you must become a Prince before you're king anyway".

 

[VirtuAlex]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Born and raised in Buenos Aires, mom and dad were italian. Spanish is my mother tongue, although from the six languages I speak, it's actually english the one I feel most comfortable with.
Hablo español - Je parle francais - Parlo italiano - Ich Spreche Deutsch - I speak english - Jeg taler Dansk (danish)

Some might say it's a shame to know so many languages but have nothing to say!

Ha Ha Ha Pepe!

But: Talar du Svenska? Puhutko Suomea? Not to mention "jeringoso" :18:

Yet another argie lost in the north of Europe :bs2:

 

[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

I'll tell you what's painful, all the make believe and appeal to authority fallacy. Nobody really knows how or why "more mass near the string" could or would effect the tone, but everyone want to make believe that somehow every little difference must effect the tone. You say you've experimented and heard a difference? Great, but there isn't much of a physical reason to explain why you should have, you didn't make any recordings or anything, so everyone has to take you at your word, so forgive me if I don't simply take your word for it. This isn't trolling, this is a lot of people who are ignoring good old fashioned logic, and getting upset by the fact.

Making a slight change to a magnetic field does not change the sound all by itself, there must be a reason that specific change effects the tone, and that tone must be change in some identifiable way. Nobody is addressing either of these things, they're just assuming that some change, no matter how small or inconsequential it might be, must change the sound.

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Yes it's trolling


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[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Trolling with facts and critical thinking!

 

[vinnie1971]

Slotted poles vs hex poles

And by the way I record all my changes - all my magnets swaps for example are recorded using the same musical passages and amp settings.

I have a nice history of recording from the original oversize ceramics, ALNICO 2, 4, 5 and 8 on bridge, neck and both. And guess what? They are for me to decide what I like best not for you as proof I did my homework,

When my parts arrive I will record my results similarly- I don't know where you draw the conclusion from that I don't.


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[thanaton]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

Right, but if all you do is pull out the slot screws and put in hex screws, then you haven't also established that the inductance wasn't altered by the new screws, and so what you are hearing might be the result of a resonant peak shift, and not the shape of the screw head. Maybe you liked the slotted or the hex screw better, that's just great, but in the end you never knew whether it was the head shape or other properties of the screw that made the difference you believe you heard. Remember: critical thinking, not trolling.

 

[EDX]

Re: Slotted poles vs hex poles

The mass shift changes tone as you are moving the field on x axis right under the string, the reson why polepice top part mass affects tone is the same as to why distance from top of the pole to bottom of the string affects tone, but in a slightlier way.

Of course this is an oversimplification as the proper way of explainig why would be like a mini scientific tesis or a scientific paper level at least

This ain't my work nor a university project, thus i really don't have any reason to post the proper not overscimplified scientific explanation unless i want to, and i'm not in the mood to do all that work just becase....

sent from my crappy junk-phone

 

[vinnie1971]

Slotted poles vs hex poles

The mass shift changes tone as you are moving the field on x axis right under the string, the reson why polepice top part mass affects tone is the same as to why distance from top of the pole to bottom of the string affects tone, but in a slightlier way.

Of course this is an oversimplification as the proper way of explainig why would be like a mini scientific tesis or a scientific paper level at least

This ain't my work nor a university project, thus i really don't have any reason to post the proper not overscimplified scientific explanation unless i want to, and i'm not in the mood to do all that work just becase....

sent from my crappy junk-phone

EDX thank you for your explanation. That's a most helpful articulation of the science in simple layman's terms.


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