So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

[SoCalSteve]

Dripping with sexual innuendo isn't it? I'm serious, though. I had a high end boutique amp (Plexi clone) but didn't keep it because of the loose low end. It just didn't have any attack. And forget about any type of palm muting. Is this a design flaw or are they purposely designed this way because some prefer it? Are the original Plexi's like this?

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Dripping with sexual innuendo isn't it? I'm serious, though. I had a high end boutique amp (Plexi clone) but didn't keep it because of the loose low end. It just didn't have any attack. And forget about any type of palm muting. Is this a design flaw or are they purposely designed this way because some prefer it? Are the original Plexi's like this?

Lots and lots of things factor into this,but it is a design thing..

 

[SoCalSteve]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

The problem with harder to find or non mass produced amps is being able to try one out before shelling out hard earned cash and being disappointed.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

I've noticed that amps built with gain in mind seem to be tighter on the lows, because you're holding back excess gain. Amps that were made to sound clean, breaking into gradual gain seem to be loose on the low end, because it's designed for a totally different kind of music......usually single coils riding the line of clean/gain. I like both types of amps, and don't expect either to cross over their boundaries. Both amps have to be approached differently, and often with different guitars.

A lot of guys buy Plexi's and Matchless amps, thinking they'll do everything, but they really do the clean/midgain thing the best. Those are the ones you see for sale.

On the flipside, you'll see roots players trying to get vintage tones out of modern amps, and the result is tight lows but a thinner overall sound. That's the type of player that doesn't need a highgain amp.

 

[SoCalSteve]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

I've noticed that amps built with gain in mind seem to be tighter on the lows, because you're holding back excess gain. Amps that were made to sound clean, breaking into gradual gain seem to be loose on the low end, because it's designed for a totally different kind of music......usually single coils riding the line of clean/gain. I like both types of amps, and don't expect either to cross over their boundaries. Both amps have to be approached differently, and often with different guitars.

Interesting, makes sense. Thanks for the insight!

 

[DeadSkinSlayer3]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Pickups can change this a bit, as well. Actives will in all but like one case play waaaaay tighter than passives.

I also find 6L6's to be tighter than EL34's, but they also have more bass, so it's different.

Most amps based off a Soldano (5150, Recto, etc) tend to be more tight than Marshall/Fender based amps.

VHT and ENGL are, hands down, the tightest amps I've found. Marshalls were the loosest.

 

[RevJToad]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

The problem with harder to find or non mass produced amps is being able to try one out before shelling out hard earned cash and being disappointed.

But you can usually get as much, or sometimes more, than you paid for older gear when you sell it. I bought a 79 Strat without playing it back around 2000, sold it last year on ebay for a couple hun more than I paid. And I paid a lot. :>

 

[Marcel]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

It's about how much bass is added pre and post the gainstages...
reduced bass before the distortion tight things up...
post gain EQ is important thin in the design of tight amps too

but there are many other facts

 

[Lava Man]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Speakers can have a lot to do with this. I bought a wide body Mark IV combo about 4 years ago and it definitely had a loose, flubby low end which dissapointed me as I was hoping it was going to sound like the Mark IC combo I bought in 1992. (Came out of box from GC - had just played through the floor model)

Upon investigation I found it had a celestion speaker. I replaced that with an Electro Voice EVM12L speaker I found used on eBay and problem solved!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Speakers, filtering and filter caps, cathode bias (looser) vs. fixed bias (tighter), transformer size (bigger is usually tighter...smaller is usually fartier), output tube type, etc.etc. Lots of factors! Lew

 

[Animal]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Speakers, filtering and filter caps, cathode bias (looser) vs. fixed bias (tighter), transformer size (bigger is usually tighter...smaller is usually fartier), output tube type, etc.etc. Lots of factors! Lew

Would cabinet design also be a major factor? I have an open back 1x12" with a Mesa Boogie Black Shadow C-90 and it sounds pretty spongey. I don't know whether to blame it on the speaker or the cab more. Not sure how much my (mid 80's Laney AOR) amp goes into the equation either to the looseness of my distorted tone.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Would cabinet design also be a major factor? I have an open back 1x12" with a Mesa Boogie Black Shadow C-90 and it sounds pretty spongey. I don't know whether to blame it on the speaker or the cab more. Not sure how much my (mid 80's Laney AOR) amp goes into the equation either to the looseness of my distorted tone.

Yep...that'd fall under the "etc., etc." part of my post! :laugh2:

My buddy has a Jackson Combo amp with two Celestion Vintage 30's...Jackson designed the cab with one Celestion open back and the other in it's own sealed half of the combo amp cab. It's punchy! I think it's called an XLS50 or something like that. I was reading on the Metaltronix or Jackson webpage that it's Lee Jackson's favorite design. The amp at least...I dunno about the speaker arrangement. But it works for getting the best of both worlds. Lew

 

[SoCalSteve]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Speakers can have a lot to do with this. I bought a wide body Mark IV combo about 4 years ago and it definitely had a loose, flubby low end which dissapointed me as I was hoping it was going to sound like the Mark IC combo I bought in 1992. (Came out of box from GC - had just played through the floor model)

Upon investigation I found it had a celestion speaker. I replaced that with an Electro Voice EVM12L speaker I found used on eBay and problem solved!

I definitely tried different speakers before giving up on the Aiken (3 different ones in 3 different cabs).

I also wonder if higher wattage tube amps tend to be tighter than lower wattage ones. The one I had was 18 watts.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Maybe you just play like that??
Dunno sometimes we strive for something we do not have.
Never had trouble with getting tight sounds out of a plexistyle amp, but then again it took some time to control those damn amps
They are raw beasts!
Maybe you should dig into something more modern?

 

[SoCalSteve]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Maybe you just play like that??
Dunno sometimes we strive for something we do not have.
Never had trouble with getting tight sounds out of a plexistyle amp, but then again it took some time to control those damn amps
They are raw beasts!
Maybe you should dig into something more modern?

I can't say it's my playing because my Traynor is much tighter than the amp in question playing the same stuff. For once I can't blame my playing :6:

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

Haha lol ok
Well Plexi style amps are very different sometimes, the lowend can vary a great deal from builder to builder.
Have you tried a Hiwatt DR504??
The 50 watts top, it is like having a Marshall with even more of it all.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

I definitely tried different speakers before giving up on the Aiken (3 different ones in 3 different cabs).

I also wonder if higher wattage tube amps tend to be tighter than lower wattage ones. The one I had was 18 watts.

An 18 watt Plexi clone??? What the heck plexi was that a clone of???:laugh2:

( Maybe it was one of those 20 watt Marshalls alot of guys on the net are so impressed with? I played one at the Dallas Guitar show. We set my brother's 18 watt Mission Aurora up in the same booth and compared them through the same speakers...the Aurora ate it for lunch. :laugh2: )

Most 18 watters get a little farty on the low end when you crank them up though...

It takes some real power to keep the low end clear and tight at higher volume settings.

Even my 22 watt Deluxe Reverbs fart out if I play them to loud.

Lew

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

18 watts...hehe I should have read more carefully, go for more power, very few can make amps in the low end of power that are tight, they always seems to throw up at a certain point as Lew says!

 

[shredaholic]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

When I think Plexi I think of looser, smoother, darker distortion. Then after the transitional period (67-68) the plexi's evolved into the tighter, thinner and more upper mid heavy circuits and didn't really change much from there throughout the metalpanel era. So either type of sound is an "authentic" plexi sound, I think the best boutique clones should get somewhere inbetween as that's where the tone is at. I'd expect more Plexi's were like the first type of sound though, as that covers the plexis made from 1962 to 1968 as opposed to mid-1968 to 1969.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: So, why do some amps have a loose, flubby low end and others are nice and tight?

When I think Plexi I think of looser, smoother, darker distortion. Then after the transitional period (67-68) the plexi's evolved into the tighter, thinner and more upper mid heavy circuits and didn't really change much from there throughout the metalpanel era. So either type of sound is an "authentic" plexi sound, I think the best boutique clones should get somewhere inbetween as that's where the tone is at. I'd expect more Plexi's were like the first type of sound though, as that covers the plexis made from 1962 to 1968 as opposed to mid-1968 to 1969.

Where'd you read that? :laugh2:

Marshall's changed from year to year right through '74 or so.

Differant transformers, higher voltages, lower voltages, etc.

My first 50 watt Marshall head had a rectifier tube...that warmed it up too.

My last 50 watt Marshall head ( model 1987 from '70) didn't and it was brigh...errrrr....more trebly! :laugh2:

There's a great article by Ken Fischer in one of Gerald Weber's books...you probably read it there, right? I learned alot about Marshall's reading that article.

Lew