Solid State vs. Tube
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midnite_man
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I agree with mostly everything posted to this thread so far. I started out with a Johnson Marquis 60 solid state 60 watt modeling amp when I got hot and heavy back into electric guitar, and still have it. They were an offshoot of Digitech Inc. and does a fairly good job simulating different style amps, plus the good quality effects along with the foot controller make it a very versatile piece of equip.
But when I bought my first tube-amp I knew that I'd be hangin' with that type of amp for the remainder of my time playing music. IMO there's just so much more output and warmth that comes out of a tube amp over a SS of equal power rating. Don't get me wrong, the SS can crank and especially when I plug in the cabinet which kicks in a small booster amp inside that houses a tube, supposedly boosting the total output up to 120 watts.
120w's in a tube amp would blow the walls off my house.
For what I play, I couldn't get as good results with anything else but a tube amp. As mentioned, I'm sure SS will catch up with the tubers eventually...which will be great....but I'll never sell mine.
Sign me,
"Looking forward to my first Marshall Half-Stack sometime in the future."
I agree with mostly everything posted to this thread so far. I started out with a Johnson Marquis 60 solid state 60 watt modeling amp when I got hot and heavy back into electric guitar, and still have it. They were an offshoot of Digitech Inc. and does a fairly good job simulating different style amps, plus the good quality effects along with the foot controller make it a very versatile piece of equip.
But when I bought my first tube-amp I knew that I'd be hangin' with that type of amp for the remainder of my time playing music. IMO there's just so much more output and warmth that comes out of a tube amp over a SS of equal power rating. Don't get me wrong, the SS can crank and especially when I plug in the cabinet which kicks in a small booster amp inside that houses a tube, supposedly boosting the total output up to 120 watts.
120w's in a tube amp would blow the walls off my house.
For what I play, I couldn't get as good results with anything else but a tube amp. As mentioned, I'm sure SS will catch up with the tubers eventually...which will be great....but I'll never sell mine.
Sign me,
"Looking forward to my first Marshall Half-Stack sometime in the future."
F
Forbes
Guest
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
=ArtieToo]Hey Forbes; I'm not quoting you because of there being anything incorrect with what you're saying, but just because it makes a good springboard for what may be a popular misconception about the tube vs SS debate.
F
Forbes
Guest
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
150+ posts and i still manage to screw up the quote thingy
150+ posts and i still manage to screw up the quote thingy
Hellion
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I'd love to be able to say I can really tell the difference between solid state and tube, but the fact of the matter is that I can only hear inherant differences in tones. I think it makes a difference as to whether or not you're processing the incoming signal (effects vs running straight in), because once you start processing, it doesn't matter anymore. Personally, I love the sound of a 6L6 pleading for its life, but in my own experience, I've had better luck with transistors. They stay more consistent night after night. I own both. They each have their place.
I'd love to be able to say I can really tell the difference between solid state and tube, but the fact of the matter is that I can only hear inherant differences in tones. I think it makes a difference as to whether or not you're processing the incoming signal (effects vs running straight in), because once you start processing, it doesn't matter anymore. Personally, I love the sound of a 6L6 pleading for its life, but in my own experience, I've had better luck with transistors. They stay more consistent night after night. I own both. They each have their place.
LesStrat
Reining PunLowered
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I'm with Hoss. Both have their applications. So a SS amp doesn't sound as good overdriven--don't overdrive it. Mic it to the PA. Is a SS equivalent w/ a boutique amp? Of course not. Then again, I can't afford a boutique amp. Nor do I want to haul it back and forth to church and terrorize our sound tech with it.
Your decision really depends on your needs, planned applications, and the time frame in which you are working. If you need an amp soon for less money, there are some good SS amps that will get you started. If you can wait and can come up with the $$$, then maybe a good tube amp is in order.
Kudos to the membership for keeping this civil so far...like Hoss, I cringed when I saw this thread title....
I'm with Hoss. Both have their applications. So a SS amp doesn't sound as good overdriven--don't overdrive it. Mic it to the PA. Is a SS equivalent w/ a boutique amp? Of course not. Then again, I can't afford a boutique amp. Nor do I want to haul it back and forth to church and terrorize our sound tech with it.
Your decision really depends on your needs, planned applications, and the time frame in which you are working. If you need an amp soon for less money, there are some good SS amps that will get you started. If you can wait and can come up with the $$$, then maybe a good tube amp is in order.
Kudos to the membership for keeping this civil so far...like Hoss, I cringed when I saw this thread title....
SoCalSteve
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I'm sold on tubes, now. As I've stated before on this topic, I had a Marshall MG30DFX, which sounded OK, but never completely satisfying. Hooked up a Toneworks and got good sounds, but that was the effect unit, not the amp.
I bought a valve amp about 2-3 months ago and the Toneworks collects dust except for the drum/metronome function.
I just love the pure sound of guitar and amp with no need for modeler.
P.S. If you get an amp with master volume knob you can get great sound at even low volume
I'm sold on tubes, now. As I've stated before on this topic, I had a Marshall MG30DFX, which sounded OK, but never completely satisfying. Hooked up a Toneworks and got good sounds, but that was the effect unit, not the amp.
I bought a valve amp about 2-3 months ago and the Toneworks collects dust except for the drum/metronome function.
I just love the pure sound of guitar and amp with no need for modeler.
P.S. If you get an amp with master volume knob you can get great sound at even low volume
Last edited:
Tonewizard
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I THINK WE WENT THROUGH THIS BEFORE. ALLOW ME TO REITERATE.
Don't be mistaken. Modeling amps will never, ever be equal to, or surpass a quality tube amp. Amp companies would love to be able to convince a whole new generation that something that cost them pennies to produce is superior to something that cost them more to produce. It's that simple.
If you use a Modeling amp, you have no self respect as a guitarist. You may as well put a big banner onstage that says WHO NEEDS GOOD TONE? NOT ME.
If you use one at home, you need a real home, so you can use a real amp.
Just remember FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS USE MODELING AMPS
It's not American. It's not even British. It's RUBBISH. :burnout:
I THINK WE WENT THROUGH THIS BEFORE. ALLOW ME TO REITERATE.
Don't be mistaken. Modeling amps will never, ever be equal to, or surpass a quality tube amp. Amp companies would love to be able to convince a whole new generation that something that cost them pennies to produce is superior to something that cost them more to produce. It's that simple.
If you use a Modeling amp, you have no self respect as a guitarist. You may as well put a big banner onstage that says WHO NEEDS GOOD TONE? NOT ME.
If you use one at home, you need a real home, so you can use a real amp.
Just remember FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS USE MODELING AMPS
It's not American. It's not even British. It's RUBBISH. :burnout:
Last edited:
lastwinj
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
nanotubes have been made. and dont forget the nuvistor made by RCA.
u have to use DC heaters with about 500,000uf of capacitance to get rid of hum. they sound kinda cool though. i made a preamp out of some.
alot of the sound from tubes also originates from the high voltage used. larger spaces require greater voltages to pass current and voltage. think of it as potential. you would be mildly surprised to find out that 600 volt Mosfets are being used in some PA amps.
germ
ArtieToo said:
nanotubes have been made. and dont forget the nuvistor made by RCA.
u have to use DC heaters with about 500,000uf of capacitance to get rid of hum. they sound kinda cool though. i made a preamp out of some.
alot of the sound from tubes also originates from the high voltage used. larger spaces require greater voltages to pass current and voltage. think of it as potential. you would be mildly surprised to find out that 600 volt Mosfets are being used in some PA amps.
germ
T
TheProphet
Guest
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
Good to see you back TW ... although thing's haven't been dull without you
Good to see you back TW ... although thing's haven't been dull without you
texasguitarslinger
Mo Cow Bellologist
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I love how a tube amp is responsive to your playing; it actually becomes an extension of your guitar. You don't get that pick pressure response from SS.
I love how a tube amp is responsive to your playing; it actually becomes an extension of your guitar. You don't get that pick pressure response from SS.
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I listen to an amp first, then look at how it is made. I have simply played enough tube amps that are terrible and SS amps that are good to make blanket statements.
I have 2 setups, 1 with a Mesa Blue Angel class A tube amp, the other with a Roland GP-100 digiteal preamp direct to the PA. Both are good sounds, and I use them for different things. Never at the same time though. The Roland gets the nod when I perform with my band.
I listen to an amp first, then look at how it is made. I have simply played enough tube amps that are terrible and SS amps that are good to make blanket statements.
I have 2 setups, 1 with a Mesa Blue Angel class A tube amp, the other with a Roland GP-100 digiteal preamp direct to the PA. Both are good sounds, and I use them for different things. Never at the same time though. The Roland gets the nod when I perform with my band.
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
Although I haven't read the replies I'd like to say this ... tube and solid state are equals today. A well designed solid state sounds just as good as a tube, and just because an amp is tube doesn't mean it will sound good either, it's the complete design that counts. A well designed tube amp is very reliable, although somewhat more fragile than a solid state, although you have to replace the tubes. A cheaply made solid state will breakdown sooner than a run of the mill tube model. Generally it takes a lot more circuitry to mimic what a tube amp does naturally, although from a cost standpoint a tube amp is more expensive ... BUT to get a S.S.amp to do what tubes do all by their selves takes (as I said ) much more circuitry, even though S.S. components are cheaper than tubes related components a well designed solid state amp may very well wind up costing as much as a good tube amp, maybe more in some cases. So S.S. amps are not always the cheaper amp, most often they are however. As good as solid state can be, many say it still doesn't sound like a tube ... well which tube amp are they referring to? from a technical perspective solid state can be made to do exactly waht tube does sonically, but at the cut and complexity that that requires, well you are better off going with the tube at that point. There are great solid state amps, and great tube amps ... there are also a host of crappy ones out there. Many cheaply built amps, especially of the solid state variety, sound great for bedroom levels, but at higher volumes tend to fail (heat).
Modelling amps are there own thing altogether, they aren't tube, but they aren't an analogue solid state either (at least in the conventional sense) ... this is why you'll often see them listed as a third category.
As to the question of which I prefer, well it depends on the model and it's characteristics ... not whether it's solid state or not.
As to the question of how they work ... you've got to be kidding if you think that's a simple answer ... if you want to know how they work, and the differences between them ... go hit as many amps sites as possible, and read up under their theory of operation sections. Oh yeah another thing, if you hear about high voltage or current, that's because tubes need that to actually work ... it doesn't have anything to do with the sound per say, it just sounds macho to talk about high voltage and current. Simple fact tubes need higher voltages, solid state doesn't, tubes generate more heat, solid state doesn't (it does it's shre though). Personal choice as to your needs and wants.
Although I haven't read the replies I'd like to say this ... tube and solid state are equals today. A well designed solid state sounds just as good as a tube, and just because an amp is tube doesn't mean it will sound good either, it's the complete design that counts. A well designed tube amp is very reliable, although somewhat more fragile than a solid state, although you have to replace the tubes. A cheaply made solid state will breakdown sooner than a run of the mill tube model. Generally it takes a lot more circuitry to mimic what a tube amp does naturally, although from a cost standpoint a tube amp is more expensive ... BUT to get a S.S.amp to do what tubes do all by their selves takes (as I said ) much more circuitry, even though S.S. components are cheaper than tubes related components a well designed solid state amp may very well wind up costing as much as a good tube amp, maybe more in some cases. So S.S. amps are not always the cheaper amp, most often they are however. As good as solid state can be, many say it still doesn't sound like a tube ... well which tube amp are they referring to? from a technical perspective solid state can be made to do exactly waht tube does sonically, but at the cut and complexity that that requires, well you are better off going with the tube at that point. There are great solid state amps, and great tube amps ... there are also a host of crappy ones out there. Many cheaply built amps, especially of the solid state variety, sound great for bedroom levels, but at higher volumes tend to fail (heat).
Modelling amps are there own thing altogether, they aren't tube, but they aren't an analogue solid state either (at least in the conventional sense) ... this is why you'll often see them listed as a third category.
As to the question of which I prefer, well it depends on the model and it's characteristics ... not whether it's solid state or not.
As to the question of how they work ... you've got to be kidding if you think that's a simple answer ... if you want to know how they work, and the differences between them ... go hit as many amps sites as possible, and read up under their theory of operation sections. Oh yeah another thing, if you hear about high voltage or current, that's because tubes need that to actually work ... it doesn't have anything to do with the sound per say, it just sounds macho to talk about high voltage and current. Simple fact tubes need higher voltages, solid state doesn't, tubes generate more heat, solid state doesn't (it does it's shre though). Personal choice as to your needs and wants.
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
Interesting, are the nanotubes actual tubes, and what is the operating concept behind the nuvistor ... I'm assuming some type of Mosfet ... 500,000uF ... ah you sure about the magnitude of that number?
Again, I agree that tubes need high voltage in order to work (at least optimally, we won't talk about preamp tubes running at very low voltages), but it doesn't necessarliy have anything to do with their sound.
One on hand I see what you are saying, the tubes headroom to satuartion is greater, but so is it's ability to span that distance qiuckly, and all the voltages in between create subtle differences in the harmonics produced, even perhaps allowing some to be reproduced more faithfully (almost like greater resolution:larger voltage/current swing ... if that makes any sense).
But that's just a by product of the tubes themselves, I will say that tubes do (by way of their natural characteristics) produce harmonics (yes even ordered) that solid state doesn't (without a lot of extra circuitry ... as I said earlier), and I'm talking on the clean signal as well, they are musically related harmonics (much like the Aphex stuff adds in)and they do it naturally, the clipping is more subtle and so is the recovery, and they start to compress as they get closer to their clipping, also there bandwidth starts to close off and produce a natural mid boost effect (especially power tubes), that along with the increase in harmoincs gives us that vocal, organic, human singing tone that has an almost acoustic nature to it. Like I said tubes do this all by themselves, however solid state needs quite a bit in order to come close. I don't know if solid state ever will truely nail it, I mean again I ask, which tube would you be emulating? A 12ax7a? Okay, well which one, as a bunch of different manufacturers tend to sound a bit different ... just like some opamps made by different manufacturers tend to sound a bit different (although tubes have a bit wider variance). Interesting thread to say the least...
lastwinj said:nanotubes have been made. and dont forget the nuvistor made by RCA.
u have to use DC heaters with about 500,000uf of capacitance to get rid of hum. they sound kinda cool though. i made a preamp out of some.
alot of the sound from tubes also originates from the high voltage used. larger spaces require greater voltages to pass current and voltage. think of it as potential. you would be mildly surprised to find out that 600 volt Mosfets are being used in some PA amps.
germ
Interesting, are the nanotubes actual tubes, and what is the operating concept behind the nuvistor ... I'm assuming some type of Mosfet ... 500,000uF ... ah you sure about the magnitude of that number?
Again, I agree that tubes need high voltage in order to work (at least optimally, we won't talk about preamp tubes running at very low voltages), but it doesn't necessarliy have anything to do with their sound.
One on hand I see what you are saying, the tubes headroom to satuartion is greater, but so is it's ability to span that distance qiuckly, and all the voltages in between create subtle differences in the harmonics produced, even perhaps allowing some to be reproduced more faithfully (almost like greater resolution:larger voltage/current swing ... if that makes any sense).
But that's just a by product of the tubes themselves, I will say that tubes do (by way of their natural characteristics) produce harmonics (yes even ordered) that solid state doesn't (without a lot of extra circuitry ... as I said earlier), and I'm talking on the clean signal as well, they are musically related harmonics (much like the Aphex stuff adds in)and they do it naturally, the clipping is more subtle and so is the recovery, and they start to compress as they get closer to their clipping, also there bandwidth starts to close off and produce a natural mid boost effect (especially power tubes), that along with the increase in harmoincs gives us that vocal, organic, human singing tone that has an almost acoustic nature to it. Like I said tubes do this all by themselves, however solid state needs quite a bit in order to come close. I don't know if solid state ever will truely nail it, I mean again I ask, which tube would you be emulating? A 12ax7a? Okay, well which one, as a bunch of different manufacturers tend to sound a bit different ... just like some opamps made by different manufacturers tend to sound a bit different (although tubes have a bit wider variance). Interesting thread to say the least...
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
Generally speaking ... Yes, ... Also they are referring to the fact that not only are the even ordered harmonics more promiment than the odd oredered, but the lower ordered harmonics are more prominent than the higher ordered harmonics as well. Also although not directly related to harmonics the amplitude positive and negative peaks are often a bit uneven as well, which tends to make the harmonics shift a bit as the signal sustains. This explains the so called *shimmer* or *swirl*that tubes have as the harmonics are literally changing as the signal sustains, plus the to halves of the wave don't have the exact same harmonic makeup;because one side is push a bit harder than the other.
You wouldn't think that the human ear would pick up the fact that the upper half of a wave is tonally different than the lower half of the wave ... but it does, your brain hears it, even if it doesn't know what it is hearing ... a testament to the wonder of the human body (all credit given upstairs of course ...my beliefs and all).
Amazing isn't it? :saeek:
gOgIver said:
Generally speaking ... Yes, ... Also they are referring to the fact that not only are the even ordered harmonics more promiment than the odd oredered, but the lower ordered harmonics are more prominent than the higher ordered harmonics as well. Also although not directly related to harmonics the amplitude positive and negative peaks are often a bit uneven as well, which tends to make the harmonics shift a bit as the signal sustains. This explains the so called *shimmer* or *swirl*that tubes have as the harmonics are literally changing as the signal sustains, plus the to halves of the wave don't have the exact same harmonic makeup;because one side is push a bit harder than the other.
You wouldn't think that the human ear would pick up the fact that the upper half of a wave is tonally different than the lower half of the wave ... but it does, your brain hears it, even if it doesn't know what it is hearing ... a testament to the wonder of the human body (all credit given upstairs of course ...my beliefs and all).
Amazing isn't it? :saeek:
CsaRvoX
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
I'm was an owner of Marshall VS-100 for 6 years and 4 months ago I get 79'Fender Twin Reverb with master volume and now I'm completely satisfied with the tube tone...superbly rich cleans and great dynamics...I would never get back to solid state tone...
I'm was an owner of Marshall VS-100 for 6 years and 4 months ago I get 79'Fender Twin Reverb with master volume and now I'm completely satisfied with the tube tone...superbly rich cleans and great dynamics...I would never get back to solid state tone...
gOgIver
New member
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
Thanks! I always see "even vs odd" harmonics and "1st and 2nd" order harmonics and "symmetrical vs asymmetrical" clipping and try to connect the dots as it were.
Kent S. said:Generally speaking ... Yes, ... Also they are referring to the fact that not only are the even ordered harmonics more promiment than the odd oredered, but the lower ordered harmonics are more prominent than the higher ordered harmonics as well. Also although not directly related to harmonics the amplitude positive and negative peaks are often a bit uneven as well, which tends to make the harmonics shift a bit as the signal sustains. This explains the so called *shimmer* or *swirl*that tubes have as the harmonics are literally changing as the signal sustains, plus the to halves of the wave don't have the exact same harmonic makeup;because one side is push a bit harder than the other.
You wouldn't think that the human ear would pick up the fact that the upper half of a wave is tonally different than the lower half of the wave ... but it does, your brain hears it, even if it doesn't know what it is hearing ... a testament to the wonder of the human body (all credit given upstairs of course ...my beliefs and all).
Amazing isn't it? :saeek:
Thanks!
I always see "even vs odd" harmonics and "1st and 2nd" order harmonics and "symmetrical vs asymmetrical" clipping and try to connect the dots as it were.
some_dude
Raging BB Gunologist
Re: Solid State vs. Tube
That's the thing though, most people get their first opinion of what ss sounds like through cheap ss amps, such as low watt practice amps, or the Marshall MG/VS/AVT series.
When you're dealling with a quality ss amp of sufficiant quality, most of the problems we associate with ss dissapear.
As an example, how many of you run the output of your tube amplifiers through a final ss gain stage (the PA)? Does your guitar disappear when put through the PA? Does your guitar suffer from harsh and unmusical clipping when going through the PA?
CsaRvoX said:
That's the thing though, most people get their first opinion of what ss sounds like through cheap ss amps, such as low watt practice amps, or the Marshall MG/VS/AVT series.
When you're dealling with a quality ss amp of sufficiant quality, most of the problems we associate with ss dissapear.
As an example, how many of you run the output of your tube amplifiers through a final ss gain stage (the PA)? Does your guitar disappear when put through the PA? Does your guitar suffer from harsh and unmusical clipping when going through the PA?
