Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Just now I'm rocking a rather strange setup for me, with my M13 wired into the loop and the front (4 cable method),
and using my Jet City OD, Memory Toy, Boss CE-2 and a Zvex 2-in-1 through the front of my Tweaker, after the M13.

It sounds GREAT. But there's no way I can duplicate the feel of the overdrive pedal from the M13's models. It just sounds wrong and it's not a subtle thing, to the point where I'm wondering if I'm doing something the wrong way.
Low gain and high volume as I do it in my actual stompbox, going through the front and not the loop of course, and the note decay is glitchy with all OD models, like when you stack two distortion pedals and use too much gain.
All the other effects from the M13 kick so much ass it's ridiculous. Really enjoying it.

I'll play through tube rigs, solid state rigs and laptops if it sounds good. I couldn't give less of a **** about that.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Try the opposite. High gain, lower volume.

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[Mincer]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I've been a Roland/Boss user since the first days or cosm. Gp100 and gt10 displaced most of my pedals long ago.

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I used a GP-100 for years. I might actually buy another one these days. It is a first generation modeler, which means it is only good at some things. It is great at effects, and either super clean or super distorted, thick sounds. It cost almost as much as a Helix back in the day.

 

[gregory]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Note decay glitchy? Turn off the noise gate.

1s and 0s do just fine in creating distortion, thanks. You might not like Line 6's models, and many don't, but don't go and blame the fact that it is digital because of it. It's extremely closed-minded.

Personally I like their TS and Tube Driver models as well as their Line 6 Drive. Two Tube Drivers or a TS or Line 6 Drive into a Tube Driver stack exceptionally well. I run the EQ profile differently for each when sticking. One is a mid push, while the other is flat or slightly scooped (by ear; not by the position of a control).

Their Boost Comp is another gem if you know how to use it.

 

[gregory]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I used a GP-100 for years. I might actually buy another one these days. It is a first generation modeler, which means it is only good at some things. It is great at effects, and either super clean or super distorted, thick sounds. It cost almost as much as a Helix back in the day.

As much as I hate racks, they can be quite sensible.

If going into a back line or just to be able to grab and go, I use an HD500. I had an RP1000 and liked it quite a bit, but I wanted more flexibility. I still have an RP355 for the compactness and the DNA2 stomp models are all quite good. I also had two M9s: one for the front of the amp and one in the loop, but sold one as a gesture to the wife for having too much gear. A friend of mine uses an ME70 and gets usable sounds from the limited selection of dirt pedals. I wouldn't mind having an ME80 to play with (including trying my hand at the COSM amp models). I especially like the interface: the more physical knobs the better! As much as I love my HD500, I hate the interface for the effects, hence the pair of M9s.

The one thing I don't like about the M9 and the RP355 is that they don't have anywhere close to the amount of output I like to use to push an amplifier.

 

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Note decay glitchy? Turn off the noise gate.

1s and 0s do just fine in creating distortion, thanks. You might not like Line 6's models, and many don't, but don't go and blame the fact that it is digital because of it. It's extremely closed-minded.

Personally I like their TS and Tube Driver models as well as their Line 6 Drive. Two Tube Drivers or a TS or Line 6 Drive into a Tube Driver stack exceptionally well. I run the EQ profile differently for each when sticking. One is a mid push, while the other is flat or slightly scooped (by ear; not by the position of a control).

Their Boost Comp is another gem if you know how to use it.

+1 on the Boost Comp. It's excellent with my Strat.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I used a GP-100 for years. I might actually buy another one these days. It is a first generation modeler, which means it is only good at some things. It is great at effects, and either super clean or super distorted, thick sounds. It cost almost as much as a Helix back in the day.

You should do it!

I still have the old 'geep' in a 2u soft rack with my wireless and a midi pedal. It was a lite rig that did so so much for the time... But I had to rely on house for a mix and finally gave up on that route.

The models were early for sure, but here is the funny thing... I liked the crunch on the gp100 better than the gt10. The gt10 crunch amps seem compressed and hollow... Some call it a cocked wah sound.

But it has killer clean amps and I love the fx. So it is usually the only thing between me and my mm hd130




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[wahwah]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

The local distributor of Fractal gave me an FX8 to try out. I spent a few days cloning my pedal board, including a Timmy, Landgraff DO and Mo'D, Xotic EP Booster, Retro-Sonic Chorus and a Skreddy Echo. The modulation and time based effects were great straight away, but after using it at a couple of gigs, I knew the drives just weren't going to cut it. Yes, they're close. But they're not the same.

I really wanted it to work for me, because the functionality is excellent and I was already imagining a vastly simplified rig for flying and local shows alike. It was such a relief to get back to my analog board. I have no problem using digital things, as mentioned I have a Skreddy Echo on my board along with a Catalinbread Echorec. I use modelling software and IRs sometimes for recording. Like the Axe Fx, the FX8 has hardware resistors and caps offering variable input impedance, and the distributor and I have been discussing changing some values to arrive at 510k ohms, mimicking the front end of a TS, because the current values jump from 1M ohm down to 230k ohms and we still might try that as an experiment. This would be an attempt to soften the brittleness of the buffer and I already use a variable impedance buffer in a Thru-Tone modded EB VP Jnr at the front of my rig, so I know that can help. But I don't think the buffer is the problem.

From what I can tell, AD/DA conversion involving drives in a live rig, especially going into a tube amp, is not something that suits every type of player. This is why the subject is polarising, because the players whom it suits can't understand why it doesn't work for the players it doesn't suit. Conversely, those who don't bond with it can't understand how anyone else could. One thing is certain, it's not yet 'exactly the same.' It just isn't. I don't know how far beyond the current spec of 24 bit, 48k converters we might have to go for it to be the same, but it's not there yet. For the players it doesn't suit, you can feel that the drive is sitting 'on top of the note,' for want of a less nebulous phrase, and as soon as you go back through an analog drive you feel the note sink back down into the sound. This is a similar experience to feeling the difference between playing through a transistor based device for drive, compared to straight into a tube amp. That is also not the same, never has been and never will be, despite the half century builders have had to attempt to emulate tubes with transistors. Similarly, some players will state that they simply can't use pedals at all, much preferring running straight into their tube amps.

At this point, the functionality and versatility make the approach very attractive, but for me the live experience of playing through it was joyless and devoid of connection, and that's just not good enough. We will go ahead and try the resistor value change in the front of the unit (which I wouldn't recommend to anyone who owns one, as it will void your warranty), but I don't hold out much hope for it. The problem is in the conversion. I've realised I'm one of the guitar players it doesn't suit. I'm glad I gave it a good shot in the spirit of keeping an open mind. For now, it's back to analog pedals for me.



Cheers............................................ wahwah

 

[Nightburst]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

One thing I found that digital can't do (yet) is emulate the 'feel' of a good analog pedal. Nor can it yet replicate the sound complexity of a good quality analog pedal. Tonight I played through my klon(e) and xtc... it will take another decade before digital can come even close to emulate such a beautiful thing!
Also digital pedals consume a considerable amount of power, when using multiple units on your board it can become an issue. Multi FX units are so much better now, they have found their spot on many pedalboards. I enjoy my M5 in the FX loop for modulation stuff to spice up my tone a bit. The drive models aren't bad from line 6 but why would I use them when there are so many amazing analog drive pedals out there.

 

[gregory]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Using digital drives shouldn't be about "exactly the same," rather what gives you the tone you like.

If there's a specific pedal you like then use it. I wouldn't even pretend the TS model in the Line 6 Gold behaved exactly the same way as a Tube Screamer any more than two Tube Screamers from different eras sound the same. I make great use of the Line 6 Tube Driver model and wouldn't even begin to think it bears any stunning resemblance to the Chandlers I played back in 1988. Yet I get compliments nonetheless.

I have a lot of gear, which includes several analog dirt, boost and OD pedals that are a pleasure to use, but not any moreso than things some pro-analog zealots would never give a fair chance unless you put in a black box and handed it to them.

Please, make no mistake, "fallability" in the ADC and DAC really doesn't have anyhing to do with why digital model XYZ won't make your heart go pitter-pat unless you're projecting qualities that wouldn't stand scrutiny under a properly controlled blind test. Rather, objectively displeasureable results will lie in the processing algorithm, and, as was correctly mentioned, quite possibly impedance matching.

Trust me, there are lots of digital dirt models I find unusable. It has everything to do with being able to get the sound in my head.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think Iwhen I was using the GP-100, the last thing I wanted to do is duplicate any pedals or amps. I was after creating sounds I hadn't heard before that drove me to play in a different way than I was used to. I find with the AX8 now, I like my more 'conventional' playing a lot as well (their Dirty Shirley model is stunning) as well as create new sounds I had never heard.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Using digital drives shouldn't be about "exactly the same," rather what gives you the tone you like.

In the case of attempting to replicate a long standing, hard working rig that is already providing the tones I like, being exactly the same is exactly what I would need the FX8 to do in order to swap over to the technology for its convenience and versatility. In the case of a pedal like the Timmy, which has ben directly modeled in the FX8, I did my own tests after closely matching the parameters and switching them blind back and forth so I had no clue which was selected. The input impedance was matched at 1M ohm, the FX8's default. I could always tell by sound and feel which was engaged. One plausible difference is the placement regarding the buffer, the pedal being pre and the model being post buffer. However, I'm very familiar with the Timmy coming after a variable impedance buffer, because that's how I run it in my live rig. At this point, we're running out of variables as to working out why they would be different.

There is no hard and fast rule as to what using digital drives should be about, because different players will have different applications and reasons for using the technology. From my experiments with the FX8, it is obviously superior in functionality and versatility, but inferior sonically in my application.



Cheers...................................... wahwah

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think Iwhen I was using the GP-100, the last thing I wanted to do is duplicate any pedals or amps. I was after creating sounds I hadn't heard before that drove me to play in a different way than I was used to. I find with the AX8 now, I like my more 'conventional' playing a lot as well (their Dirty Shirley model is stunning) as well as create new sounds I had never heard.

Mincer, although we play different music, it amazes me how often our thoughts align...

I got into modeling to save my back, but almost immediately found sounds I can't get with analog...

Best example was my old analog Rush rig. Dunlop vol split between Plexi for crunch and Yamaha ss for clean chorus... The in-between settings we're gold ...a mix of crunch and shimmer that was totally variable and probably slightly different every night.

Getting rid of 2 amps was my initial modeling goal, but I immediately found even better 'tween' sounds by varying pedal mix from clean twin to boogie with preamp gains going up, delay mixing in and doubling when the pedal hits 126.

All the way from sweet home to Brian May in one pedal sweep and I dare anyone to try to flip on multiple pedals as fast

And all of those middle tones blow my old rush rig out of the water.

But here's the funny thing. At home, most of the time I go straight into my tubes with the simple choice of clean or overdrive

Bottom line for me, tube simplicity is great and modeling flexibility is great depending on what's going on.

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[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Oh well.

Cue a few days later, and the M13's dirt models sound pretty damn good now. I traced it down to two things:

1) A Boss GE7 in the loop of my amp which was sucking a crazy amount of high end and high mids, for unknown reasons. I hadn't noticed this and I was heavily compensating from the amp. Cue some usual "blanket off" statements here.
2) My Jet City OD pedal crapped out and was doing a lot of tone suck in bypass mode, due to a faulty switch. I hadn't noticed this either.

Both pedals were removed, and now I'm loving the TS, RAT and Tube Drive models.
No glitchy decay or weird fuzziness, just solid tones all over the place.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I've now got a couple of hybrid Analog/Digital drive pedals from a high profile digital company. They don't sound exactly like analog pedals and tube amps, but through a tube amp and speaker at reasonable volume they sound and play really good. A little too much compression and the feel is a little different, but I can see how Kempers, Axe-FXs and Helicies are so popular.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

WHat I've noticed comparing the M13 to the "real" pedals I have, the "exact same settings" are not "the exact same results". The M13 takes "a little to one side", especially for knobs set "in the middle" on the real pedal. Perhaps this is where the issues arise for players like wahwah who can't get the same sound: the (hypothetical) 3 knobs on the pedal are set to 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock, and 11:30, but when the same "knobs" of the M13 are set the same, it's not the same. Moving the M13's knobs to 3, 5, and 9 may be what's needed, or the analog pedal's circuitry has undergone such a dramatic physical change over time that a brand new one just like it could not sound the same when set the same.

Or, maybe the model Line 6 used was a prototype, or somewhat physically different than what everyone else (or just one person) has.

Maybe they were playing a specific guitar/pickup/amp/speaker combo through the "test subject" and built their model on that sound, which doesn't sound as good when not using any exact piece of their combo?
Maybe they did model the values of the components of the circuitry rather than the audible end-result, but misread one, or one was giving a wonky reading or was mismarked?

There are limitless unknowns.

Or it could just be there really is 1 dentist out of 10 who would not recommend Crest.

 

[gregory]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Maybe people have unreasonable expectations and these expectations are being fueled by hype from the Line 6 marketing department.

Does the TS Drive model sound and feel exactly like a the extra special scratched up TS808 specimen with the duct tape battery compartment they supposedly have on hand? I doubt it. Does this keep me from getting a good sound with it? Nope.

...but don't underestimate the ability of an analog pedal to affect the tone and feel of your guitar; especially when it's broken. :9: