Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I like modularity and the infinite flexibility of separate pedals. The costs are worth it to me.

Lol... that sounds like it could be an excuse for "I like shopping." [emoji12]

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Contrast that with Strymon or Neunaber who keep your tone super super pure and mix it with the effect which sounds really crisp and clean and 'modern'.

Just an FYI:
The DECO does not do this and it has no blend control. It colours, darkens, and compresses your original tone a LOT.

The DECO is also indistinguishable (to my ear) from a very good 15 ips multitrack.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Same here. I compared my M13 to my OD-2, RAT, Metal Zone, and BK Butler Tube Drivers. Aside from a very slight variance between the ranges of the RATs (M13 seemed to kick in later, but did more once it did), I'm also comparing recently-made originals to vintage models.

I even posted a clip here of me playing along to Ride The Lightning using the Big Muff model through a JCM800, and blended right in with the CD track.

I'm convinced that most of the "digital sounds digitally" comes from preconceived notions and prejudices, and that in a true blind test between the real thing and an M13 that was set up properly, very few people could pick the M13 out, and most of the ones who could would just be a random lucky guess.

I've done similar tests. My M9 was able to clone..not get close, but clone...the sound of several pedals I had.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

My view on it, not that anyone really cares....

Right now digital and analog are different and distinguishable. The two questions are:
-Is the difference enough for me to care?
-Which do I prefer?

As TimmyPage says, you may prefer digital chorus and digital delay but analog phase and univibe. Just like amps, some prefer solid state power amps, they perform differently so try many and choose what you prefer.


As far as modeling, it comes down to three (maybe 4) things:
-What are you modelling? (I agree you need to get into individual component non-linearities to get closer to original gear)
-Having a good math model for it (knowing what to model and actually creating the digital equations are two different things)
-DSP Power (you need enough power to run the simulations to the detail you've modeled)
-A/D and D/A quality (without a good conversion to and from the digital world, none of the above matters)

Eventually we'll get to the place where all those items are advanced enough that modeling will be basically unmistakable for the original stuff.

TimmyPage, some of that "darkening" is an impedance issue with older boxes. A lower input impedance than modern boxes will darken the tone some and that's the way we are used to hearing it. A lot of Univibes now have a "vintage" and "modern" switch which makes the impedance a more modern and higher value.

 

[mantis]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I really dig the Boss ES-3 concept. I know they're not the first to do this, but I really like the execution.

Build a multi-effect that excels at doing thing things that digital is really good at, allow it to control analogue pedals that are doing things that analogue pedals are really good at, and allow it to control your tube amp that is doing the things that tube amps are really good at.

I own it and as much as I wish it would sound just like the pedals it does not.
I'm pretty sad about it as I hate anything that alters my tone that I worked so hard to dial in. I just wish someone would build something like this Boss unit that actually sounds analog, take out all the stupid adjustments and just let the thing work as if you had all the stand alone pedals.
They take your guitar in and change it to digital, then go through all the effects then send it back out analog after once again converting it. Why can't they just add the effect to the analog sound?
Pedals don't sound like this thing does. The MS-3 has TRS control and I love that. It can use the 4cm but you lose a loop. The Loops are tied together but thats no big deal as I wouldn't mind just using the MS-3 for everything IF I can dial the damn thing in the way I want it.

The software is taking forever to come out as it was pushed back to August and editing on the MS-3 sucks hard. The Editing software just like the GT-100 is where it's at and releasing the Switcher without it just was a stupid thing to do.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Lol... that sounds like it could be an excuse for "I like shopping." [emoji12]

Well, I do. I love that I can swap out a compressor or a chorus, or try a new reverb, without disrupting everything else in my rig. I've owned too many awful all-in-one processors to want to put all the eggs in one basket again.

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Just an FYI:
The DECO does not do this and it has no blend control. It colours, darkens, and compresses your original tone a LOT.

The DECO is also indistinguishable (to my ear) from a very good 15 ips multitrack.

The DECO is FANTASTIC. I was more referring to their other pedals, even the El Cap (which I adore) does not use any input filtering so the base tone sounds super pure and modern even if the tape delay sound is realistic behind. I maybe shouldn't have generalised by brand. And also, a lot of digital stuff now specifically models analog effects, so when I say I prefer the crisp and modern digital sound I am talking about the pedals which don't attempt to model any analog effect.

 

[mantis]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Well, I do. I love that I can swap out a compressor or a chorus, or try a new reverb, without disrupting everything else in my rig. I've owned too many awful all-in-one processors to want to want to put all the eggs in one basket again.

Im with you on this man. I've been trying since the GT-8 way back when it came out from Boss. I messed around with Korg and Line 6 and always went back to Pedals.
Love the ability to control everything with one stomp but not to give up on tone which is what seems to happen with any of these all in one units.
When Boss came out with the MS-3 I thought 'OK THIS MUST BE THE ONE" but its the same as all the rest. I really thought since they basically took a GT-100 and removed the Amp modeling , cabs and Mic crap , removed the built on expression pedal and added 3 Loops that this thing should sound just like if you where using just pedals but it doesn't. It still changes your guitar and amps natural tone and I think that suck so bad. I don't need 100 plus effects.
If someone could build something like the MS-3 and retain your amp and guitars natural tone, I'm there. But it looks like the MS-3 is going back and I'm just gonna get a Boss ES-8 pedal switcher and call it a day unless the ES-8 changes your natural tone then I'm completely done with these kinds of things and I'll simply my effects use and just use pedals by them selves.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I own it and as much as I wish it would sound just like the pedals it does not.
I'm pretty sad about it as I hate anything that alters my tone that I worked so hard to dial in. I just wish someone would build something like this Boss unit that actually sounds analog, take out all the stupid adjustments and just let the thing work as if you had all the stand alone pedals.
They take your guitar in and change it to digital, then go through all the effects then send it back out analog after once again converting it. Why can't they just add the effect to the analog sound?
Pedals don't sound like this thing does. The MS-3 has TRS control and I love that. It can use the 4cm but you lose a loop. The Loops are tied together but thats no big deal as I wouldn't mind just using the MS-3 for everything IF I can dial the damn thing in the way I want it.

The software is taking forever to come out as it was pushed back to August and editing on the MS-3 sucks hard. The Editing software just like the GT-100 is where it's at and releasing the Switcher without it just was a stupid thing to do.

You'll never have an all analog ciircuit like this... there are hundreds of effects, and that requires DSP. Each type of chorus would require a discrete circuit. Some effects do have analog dry through, but by nature of the effect those can really only be Delay and reverb. Even an effect like chorus (delayed signal mixed with dry) can run into phasing issues if you use analog through with the short DSP delay.

MS-3 is really intended for those that like the GT100 style effects but want to use their own (usually analog) drive pedals.

Sounds like ES-8 is up your alley. Lots of MIDI and CTRL IN/OUT, easy 4CM and the ability to use your own pedals.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I do not think that analog units are "just better", since I'm truly no snob. I don't care if an amp is SS, digital or tube, or if my pedals are analog or digital as long as it sounds and feels right. But there's certain quirks that your analog pedals surely have, that a digital version will not always replicate as such, even if it's doing an excellent job at it.

These are the words of a wise man....

 

[some_dude]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

MS-3 is really intended for those that like the GT100 style effects but want to use their own (usually analog) drive pedals.

I think the MS-3 is for those that want a lot of control but don't want to spend 1-3 grand (or more) on individual units and a switching system.... plus the necessity of hauling it everywhere they go.

The MS-3 is certainly a compromise... but for some people (particularly singers who play guitar) ease of use (on stage) is a valid trade off.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think the MS-3 is for those that want a lot of control but don't want to spend 1-3 grand (or more) on individual units and a switching system.... plus the necessity of hauling it everywhere they go.

The MS-3 is certainly a compromise... but for some people (particularly singers who play guitar) ease of use (on stage) is a valid trade off.

I think a lot of people have enjoyed the GT and ME lines for many years. Adding the ability to do some switching, routing and MIDI control from the ES series was a piece of cake for BOSS. I can see lots of applications for this unit.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think a lot of people have enjoyed the GT and ME lines for many years. Adding the ability to do some switching, routing and MIDI control from the ES series was a piece of cake for BOSS. I can see lots of applications for this unit.

You're probably right. I'm seeing it from the other side; I had no real interest in the GT and ME lines but as a single effects guy that doesn't want a rack the ES-5 and ES-8 were pretty appealing. An ES and DD-500 seemed like a pretty potent combo, and this seems like natural extension of that thought process.

 

[mantis]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

You'll never have an all analog ciircuit like this... there are hundreds of effects, and that requires DSP. Each type of chorus would require a discrete circuit. Some effects do have analog dry through, but by nature of the effect those can really only be Delay and reverb. Even an effect like chorus (delayed signal mixed with dry) can run into phasing issues if you use analog through with the short DSP delay.

MS-3 is really intended for those that like the GT100 style effects but want to use their own (usually analog) drive pedals.

Sounds like ES-8 is up your alley. Lots of MIDI and CTRL IN/OUT, easy 4CM and the ability to use your own pedals.

Yeah I have to agree. I looked over the ES-8 and it's amazing. I think thats where I'm headed.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

When you get to the top tier modelers, I'm not convinced that they are distinguishable from analog when set up correctly and played through a good PA.

:yeah:, they've gotten that good.

 

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

When you get to the top tier modelers, I'm not convinced that they are distinguishable from analog when set up correctly and played through a good PA.

:yeah:, they've gotten that good.

Sadly, I haven't had the chance to try anything from the Helix/Fractal family.
There's no doubt in my mind that I'd love it.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Been playing my Line 6 Spider Valve. I know that the tech is 10 years old now, but I think it sounds killer. Of course it might help that it's a modeler going into essentially a full tube amp.

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[Securb]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Digital can do anything analog does don't fool yourself. It just seems you have to pay an arm and a leg to get digital equipment that will get the job done right vs. a used $50 stomp from your local mom and pop.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I've had a few multi fx units over the years, and in my experience, the delay, modulation, reverbs etc are very usable.
The overdrive/ distortions.....terrible.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I've been a Roland/Boss user since the first days or cosm. Gp100 and gt10 displaced most of my pedals long ago.

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