speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Thanks Jmoose, I read last night about SS amps not needing a dummy load, but still I use a Hot Rod Deville as well which is tube. I still need a attenuator primarily for a dummy load. Are there reasons to spend boucou bucks on something if all I am using it for is the dummy load? I have no interest in getting the cranked sound in a lower volume.

Ted Weber never returned my emails... With all the Weber attenuators I wonder if I would be fine with the cheapest one they sell. Mass, Micro Mass, Mini Mass, Mass 150, Mass 200 etc etc.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

All you need for a dummy load is the correct resistance that can handle the power. For my Cornell (10W max) I used 4 5W 8 ohm power resistors (wired 2x2) in an aluminium chassis that acts as a heatsink. For a 100W amp you'd obviously up that a bit and consider a fan.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I just re-read the Weber site about their attenuators and it seems the main purpose is one wanting to crank a tube amp but without such a loud volume. Not exactly what I am after and if what I am after is even applicable. I'm not looking for cranked volume, I am just want the amp output to have a speaker simulation running to a small mixer into the recorder with the speaker having NO volume. Am I on the right track, and if so, which Weber model would I need?

Here's what I do:

Mesa Mark IV
To
Palmer PDI-09
Speaker thru to Weber MASS 150
Output to recording console

I use the MASS 150 as a glorified load box. In all honesty, you could probably build something that'll work just as well for around 10 or 15 bucks.

 

[J Moose]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

the pdi-09 is more than just a standard di box. it does have a cabinet simulator built in.

So do my $75 passive Whirlwind DI boxes... Whuz 'yer point? lol

I'm sure the Palmer sounds a whole lot better though!

I'm sure there's at least more then a slight difference tonally... between the Palmer load and something that could be cobbled together out of RatShack parts. I believe (?) the Palmer gear is using a "reactive" load which means it responds in a non-linear fashion, like a speaker.

Does it matter in the long run?

Who knows...

I consistently find that great performance is far more compelling then great tone.

Fusion ~ Dummy load & attenuators ARE NOT the same!

One prevents your amp from melting. The other turns it down...

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I'm sure there's at least more then a slight difference tonally... between the Palmer load and something that could be cobbled together out of RatShack parts. I believe (?) the Palmer gear is using a "reactive" load which means it responds in a non-linear fashion, like a speaker.

I thought I had seen a picture of the guts of a PDI-03 once, It was pretty barren except for a little circuit board by the filter section, and a few power resistors @ the load box.

I know that the PDI-03 has one switch on it that the PDI-09 doesn't. That's the "deep/flat" switch. Dunno how much of a difference that makes between the two, I've never had a chance to try out the PDI-03. Still, the company says that the PDI-09 is the same filter section as the PDI-03, I can't imagine that there's that much of a difference.

Still, the whole reactive load/unreactive load thing might be something to look into. I'm thinkin bout building a little power resistor load box and A/Bing against my MASS.

 

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Thanks, Krankguitarist, I may have to look into a unit like the MASS 150.

JMoose with a SS amp you would avoid the dummy load completely or to be on the safe side still use one?

You mentioned earlier it is not necessary to use one with a SS amp, but when you said "usually safe", it sounds a bit leery on whether the amp would blow up still.

I'd spend the bucks to be on the safe side if it makes a difference... or is even necessary as insurance. Thoughts?

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

The hot rod deville is a lower watttage tube amp than my Mark IV though, you'd probably be able to get away with an attenuator with a lower power rating. About 1.5 to 2 times the power rating of your amp seems to be the safe range. Reason being is if ya really crank it you could be putting out more wattage than what your amp is rated for, thus blowing your attenuator. And, consequently, your output transformer .

As for solid state amps, I've always heard that they don't require a dummy load, but I'm no expert on the matter.

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I have been trying the Weber Mass as the load, then using it's line out to my MicroCab and it has been working pretty well. I have been using it with my 5e3 head and the Traynor Bass Master II head. I am still tweaking it but it has been doing pretty well.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I'd go with a load box and use impulses before using a Palmer again, in all honesty. I know I'm going to use my real amp for anything 'official,' though, so the POD works just fine for my writing purposes.

 

[J Moose]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

JMoose with a SS amp you would avoid the dummy load completely or to be on the safe side still use one?

You mentioned earlier it is not necessary to use one with a SS amp, but when you said "usually safe", it sounds a bit leery on whether the amp would blow up still.

I'd spend the bucks to be on the safe side if it makes a difference... or is even necessary as insurance. Thoughts?

Well yeah, like I said... with solid state you "usually" don't need a load... generally the thing that blows them up is driving too low of a load or a short.

HOWEVER... Don't call me up and whine if you try it and the amp smokes!

Frankly, I think spending $600-700 on a Palmer box is worth the investment if you're that into recording.

How much have you spent on your guitars? How about the amps? How important is the recorded tone to your work? Would 'ya want to gamble on a "cheaper" solution just because it's cheaper? What if it blows up or blows something else up? Why not get the thing that sounds great AND ensures the integrity & safety of the rig?

A single decent mic like a 421 is $350...

Guess it depends on perspective & importance.

Krank - I haven't opened up a Palmer... but 'ya know... a '77 JMP and '66 Fender are both loaded with capacitors & resistors on a turret board and sound NOTHING alike!

 

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

JMoose, basically I am waiting for an answer from Ted Weber. You misunderstood me, I am not wanting to scrimp and potentially damage my gear. I was just being frugal in not buying something that wasn't even necessary.

I might just buy the Mass 150 and be done with it, but I was hoping to at least be able to talk to someone at Weber or at least have them return an email.

Also, I already own a PDI-09 so it's not like I am taking the cheap way out, since I could have bought one of those Behringer DI's.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Krank - I haven't opened up a Palmer... but 'ya know... a '77 JMP and '66 Fender are both loaded with capacitors & resistors on a turret board and sound NOTHING alike!

Eh? That wasn't anywhere near my point bro .

Those power resistors aren't in the audio path, their sole purpose is to provide a load for the amp. If it's really just a few resistors wired up to take the load, A home-made box and a PDI-09 (which the company says is the filter section of the PDI-03 without the power soak) could do the exact same thing for a whole lot cheaper than the PDI-03.

Can't say I've seen a schematic though. I'll have to see if I can't find that picture again, it was a long time ago.

However, I am curious if there are any differences between using power resistors VS a speaker motor as a load. One day I'll have to wire together a little load box and do a couple of clips.

 

[J Moose]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Those power resistors aren't in the audio path, their sole purpose is to provide a load for the amp. If it's really just a few resistors wired up to take the load, A home-made box and a PDI-09 (which the company says is the filter section of the PDI-03 without the power soak) could do the exact same thing for a whole lot cheaper than the PDI-03.

Yeah... sure... I'd agree with a lot of that. If all anyone needs is a loadbox then there's no reason you couldn't put one together in a nice case for about $40-50.

I'm pretty sure though, that the Palmer uses a reactive load and that the rock resistors are in the audio path based on what I've been told and hearing/using the box.

Think about it... the amps speaker with really high voltage and LOTS of power is going to the speaker in/through of the Palmer... and inside the Palmer that super high voltage is being transformed into a really small line level signal. How could the resistors NOT be in the audio path?

Based on experiences, I'd say there is a difference in feel & tone between a stright load & reactive. Straight is far more 'compressed' and not as open... Though either one is good if you can't make a lot of noise!

 

[uOpt]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I have a Palmer speaker simulator that I use with my JMP. I don't have that stuff with me right now so here's from memory: Overall it sounds way too dry, I never really got what I wanted out of it. At the very least you'd have to add a high-quality reverb to loosen it up.

So far, I rate the speaker "simulators" in my Tonelab higher but as I said I couldn't compare 1:1 yet.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Think about it... the amps speaker with really high voltage and LOTS of power is going to the speaker in/through of the Palmer... and inside the Palmer that super high voltage is being transformed into a really small line level signal. How could the resistors NOT be in the audio path?

Ahh, I got what you're sayin. Nah, I was just talking about the power soak itself, not the actual filter circuit. Of course there's gonna be plenty going on in the filter section, but those huge power resistor's aren't actually a part of the filter circuit. That'd be wayyyyy overkill. I can tell ya that there's nothing like that on the inside of my PDI-09.

What I can't tell ya, though, is what exactly is going on in the filter circuit. The whole filter unit on the circuit board is boxed up tight, probably filled with epoxy too. Covering their bases, I suppose, in case anybody gets the idea to try and reverse-engineer the thing .

 

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

Fusion ~ Dummy load & attenuators ARE NOT the same!

One prevents your amp from melting. The other turns it down...

I know they are two different functions, but from checking out various attenuators like a THD Hotplate and the Weber Mass 150 and the Marshall Power Brake I see they pretty much all can be used as dummy loads as well.

I know you mentioned resistors is pretty much what a dummy load consists of, but I am not about to play mad scientist and wire up something myself to potentially burn the joint down. ANy idea of decent dummy loads for sale by a repoutable company?

 

[J Moose]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

I know they are two different functions, but from checking out various attenuators like a THD Hotplate and the Weber Mass 150 and the Marshall Power Brake I see they pretty much all can be used as dummy loads as well.

I know you mentioned resistors is pretty much what a dummy load consists of, but I am not about to play mad scientist and wire up something myself to potentially burn the joint down. ANy idea of decent dummy loads for sale by a repoutable company?

The Power Brake (which I own) and the Hot Plate (which several friends own) ARE NOT load boxes. Try that and you'll melt your amp...

(wasn't that already established? :boggled

That's how attenuators get the rap of blowing up amps... because people don't use them properly.

I'm sure somebody must built a commerically available dummy load... but who knows. I've never seen one. Typically it's not anything anyone ever needs in a standalone box. "I wanna crank up my amp but not plug it into anything 'cause that would make noise..?"

The PDI3 has been available for over 20 years... that says something...

Last time I checked a new Power Brake is over $500 (unreal) and a Hot Plate is about $350... Palmer DI is another $200... and then you've got two boxes instead of one single box for about the same dough if not more and it won't accomplish what I think you'd like to accomplish.

As for "dry" tone out of a load box or DI... well yeah! There's no speaker moving air so of course it'll be fairly "in 'yer face". Not a bad sound, just a different one.

 

[J Moose]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

This is pretty good... found it while searching the cost of a power break.

http://ask.metafilter.com/56110/Will-using-a-Marshall-Power-Brake-break-my-nonMarshall-amp

 

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

The Power Brake (which I own) and the Hot Plate (which several friends own) ARE NOT load boxes. Try that and you'll melt your amp...

(wasn't that already established? :boggled

Actually, no it wasn't established, unless I am taking your word as gospel. If you own a PB then maybe the one you own is different than some of the reviews I have read. Oh and check out this little nugget of info I just found from ampworks.com

Power Brake PB-100 -- list $379, Guitar Center price $279
Power Brake PB-100 WSP (white) -- list $385, Guitar Center price $299 (not in stock at this store)

Cooling fan.

Does not have a cab-sim filter.
Has no Line Out jack.

12-position rotary knob. 3dB increments. Position 12 is speaker muted, making a load box. 2 speaker outs. If the attenuation is at -33 you could probably use that as a line out. The 12th step on the knob is the "dummy load" position, permitting use without a guitar speaker.


The THD Hotplate website actually contradicts what you say so either:

A) I have to believe you or
B) The company that manufactures the unit

Here is what they say in their bullet point list of the Hotplate:

THD Hot Plate Attenuator Features:

High-fidelity power attenuator
Designed for use with vacuum tube guitar amplifiers
Great amplifier dummy load
Optimized for specific impedances
Frequency-compensated
Built-in noise reduction (approx. 10dB)
Bright switch and Deep switch
Adjustable line out

I mean they go out of their way to mention how great it works as a dummy load and yet you are saying it has been established that it isn't a unit that can be used as a dummy load. I guess you can see why I wasn't satisfied with your original post as I found conflicting information from you for some odd reason.

 

[Fusion1]

Re: speaker simulators like the palmer pdi-3, etc

This is pretty good... found it while searching the cost of a power break.

http://ask.metafilter.com/56110/Will-using-a-Marshall-Power-Brake-break-my-nonMarshall-amp

The second response of this link you posted also refutes your idea the PB can't be used as a dummy load. Also I don't remember if you mentioned whether you could use a dummy load for a SS amp (you said it wasn't necessary but didn't answer my previous question if it is even safe to use one with a SS amp) or not but the red highlight also mentions you can use it with tube or SS for what it's worth.

No, it will not hurt your amp, and it does not have anything to do with whether or not the amp is solid state or tube - that's sort of a red herring.

The Power Brake works by pretending to be a speaker - it's an inductive load of the right approximate impedance. It has it's load in series with the speaker output and essentially the more power you sink into the load (via the dial on the front) the less gets to the speakers. It present a constant load to the amp though. It does not vary the current going into the amp. I think you are thinking of something like power scaling, which limits the current that the output tubes consume.

The power break also did not blow the fuse on your soldano. It just allowed you to turn the output of your soldano way up without making the output at the speakers exceptionally loud. Likely, the same thing would have happened without the power brake, except it would have been really loud.

The power brake does expect a specific output impedance from the amp, I think it's switchable between 8ohms and 16ohms. I have used the power brake with a 4ohm load (all tube) and it didn't really harm anything. It's probably not advisable. This is something that tube outputs are worse at, they really do expect and desire the right output impedance - with transistor amps usually you just experience a loss of power and sometimes some frequency-dependant signal loss.

Also, the power brake does not burn your tubes out faster - that is, it doesn't burn them out any faster than running your tube at a high volume into normal speakers does. However, you may get less life out of your tubes than if you had the amp turned way down and didn't use the power brake. This is a useless comparison because you'd laos get a lot more life out of your tubes if you never turned the amp on - so what? The point is to get the sound you desire at the volume you're comfortable with.

Just remember that the power brake is entirely external from your amp, think of it as just being a speaker with a volume control. It has been postulated that the quality of the output is not exactly the same, because frequency response of the power brake is not exactly the same as a speaker, and this is probably true, but also probably somewhat irrelevant. It sounds good enough and works good enough for most people, myself included.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point I am wondering if you are just messing with me as I bought a guitar neck from you a year or so ago that kicked ass and you seemed to know your stuff. I'm not trying to be a jerk I just want to buy the right gear over something I'm not familiar with at all.