SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

[Mincer]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I listened, and those are some odd EQ settings:
This is done with a typical cable length, about 15 ft. The treble setting is at about 2 on the amp, the bass is at 4 and mid at 4. The tone setting is at about 3.

Not that what you are experiencing isn't true, I can hear the extra high end, but that might be that pickup in the bridge position hitting the amp harder. Since the EQ is rather unique, I am not sure what it should sound like with those EQ settings.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I listened, and those are some odd EQ settings:
This is done with a typical cable length, about 15 ft. The treble setting is at about 2 on the amp, the bass is at 4 and mid at 4. The tone setting is at about 3.

Not that what you are experiencing isn't true, I can hear the extra high end, but that might be that pickup in the bridge position hitting the amp harder. Since the EQ is rather unique, I am not sure what it should sound like with those EQ settings.

Well, I have the treble and tone so low to disprove the idea that my amp settings are the source of the issue.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

It sounded normal to me. I think 3 pages is enough to dispel with the idea that something is broken. If you want a warmer sound then adjust your rig for a warmer sound. Try different values of resisters to see if you like the result. I have a 100k volume and 250k no load tone in my jazz strat and I love it. Adjust your amp eq. Get an eq pedal. Go noiseless. Noiseless single coils are rounder and less harsh. Or maybe try a different style of pickup altogether. But if you want to stick with your true single coils, you have plenty of options.

Interesting. I mean even I didn't really notice this at first. But now that I have been listening to my tone on headphones I can't unhear it. It's what prompted me to sit in front of my amp to try to hear the sound right at the source. It's interesting, if your not at the same level of your amp or as close enough as a mic would be the tone can sound drastically different. I thought my tone was pretty great when I was just hearing my amp from afar with the sound bouncing off the walls and being slightly colored, and perhaps discolored, by the room.

I would like to keep my setup in terms of pickups if at all possible mainly because there is a pretty specific tone that I'm going for. To try to replicate that tone with a different setup would be a lot of rambling around.

It's also not necessarily that I want a "warmer" sound either. I think my sound is pretty great at times it just has that annoying treble tacked on.

I think I'll probably try a 100k volume pot, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[freefrog]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Alright, so I did some quick recording. The first version is one where I demoed the pickups at Fender suggested heights, so, typically what you would see them at, without having an issue. The second version I recorded was with the pickups sunk done as far as they can go. The recordings were done with the Treble on my amp set about 2, the Tone at about 3.5, Mid at 4 and Bass at about 4. The licks I recorded were really just something random. I changed it a little bit in because I was noticing I was a getting a little lucky at times with the issue not reproducing. I also recorded this with just a 15ft GLS Audio instrument cable plugged directly into my amp which is a Laney Cub head and cab.

OK.
From my crappy laptop loudspeakers and while it's 7:30AM here, I hear what I'd expect from the unprocessed recording of such a small amp: something slightly gritty. I get a pretty similar sound when I put an EL84 in my cathode biased 5W head.

The various pickups positions in the two samples have nothing special to me. Reminds me the tone heard a while back from a maple neck MIM Strat hosting similar pickups (I had fitted it with SSL5, SSL1, APS1). There's a prominent harmonic peak around 2237hz or something like that. It obviously translates the spectrum of the miked loudspeaker.

Here are the related spectra, captured through Audacity:

I started the recordings with the bridge pup and then slowly made my way to the neck pup. I recommend listening at generally louder volumes because of the nature of higher sounds. Also, if you want a quick guide on where you can hear it most prominently, you could check out the neck pup on the lower pickup heights, which is the last recording in the second version.

It's also strange how the recordings here make me sound almost as if I was really digging in hard when playing, but I was really only playing with moderate force and, at times, pretty softly.

No clipping occurred in these recordings whatsoever.

In my hasty Audacity recording, THERE IS clipping. See the highlighted section in this screenshot:



Now, here is the related harmonic spectrum, with the harmonic peaks that you find annoying:



At first glance, they are not exact multiple of the highest fundamental frequencies: they appear to be odd harmonics. And even if they were simple overtones of the fundamental notes, such harmonic peaks shouldn't appear with bent strings vibrating freely.

Unless a few hours of decantation change my mind, I stand on my last idea, therefore: for me, these annoying frequencies are due to the high strings buzzing on something. Not necessarily the highest frets: I've already cured similar problems due to bridges and saddles.

The problem is just enhanced by the amp and recording.

EDIT in order to share an afterthought: compressors are our friends. It's not without reasons that David has used MXR then Boss compressors (two weapons that I've in my own arsenal and that I often use, especially for clean tones à la Gilmour)...

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

OK.
From my crappy laptop loudspeakers and while it's 7:30AM here, I hear what I'd expect from the unprocessed recording of such a small amp: something slightly gritty. I get a pretty similar sound when I put an EL84 in my cathode biased 5W head.

The various pickups positions in the two samples have nothing special to me. Reminds me the tone heard a while back from a maple neck MIM Strat hosting asimilar pickups (I had fitted it with SSL5, SSL1, APS1). There's a prominent harmonic peak around 2237hz or something like that. It obviously translates the spectrum of the miked loudspeaker.

Here are the related spectra, captured through Audacity:

View attachment 102740

View attachment 102741



In my hasty Audacity recording, THERE IS clipping. See the highlighted section in this screenshot:

View attachment 102742

Now, here is the related harmonic spectrum, with the harmonic peaks that you find annoying:

View attachment 102744

At first glance, they are not exact multiple of the highest fundamental frequencies: they appear to be odd harmonics.

Unless a few hours of decantation change my mind, I stand on my last idea, therefore: these annoying frequencies are due to the high strings buzzing on something. Not necessarily the highest frets: I've already cured similar problems due to bridges and saddles.

The problem is just enhanced by the amp and recording.

Wow, this is really awesome information! I'll be honest, it being about 3am here and me not getting much sleep over researching this issue, I had to re-read your post a few times. However, one thing I'm a little confused about is the graphic that you said exhibited clipping. You said "audacity recording", is that graph representing a recording you did yourself? I'm just a little confused by the wording. Also, to clarify, the last graph is representing data from my recordings, correct? If so this is very interesting information.

If it means anything I also have issues with strumming intervals high up the fretboard. Say strumming a third around high E 15th fret, even though the guitar will have great intonation on those two notes, it will sound completely off, as though there was an odd harmonic muddying up the sound. What you said reminded of that so I thought it might be helpful to share.

Also, I believe it's likely that the string isn't really buzzing from contact with the frets because the issue is still prevalent when using a slide, or not depressing the strings when playing. Therefore, a reaction with the bridge is an interesting conclusion that seems to fit.

Also I hope you know that I have spared your ears
I accidentally left the treble at about 6 when I was playing around with some different settings the other day. I raised the pickups to normal height for the prep for the first test recording and I played a note on the 15th fret of high E and it was so ear-piercing I actually let out a yell.
That is precisely why I have my treble setting at 2 right now for my amp, which is still lower than I usually like having it.

Anyways, let me reiterate, this is awesome research that you have done! This his given me a lot to think about.

 

[freefrog]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

You said "audacity recording", is that graph representing a recording you did yourself? I'm just a little confused by the wording. Also, to clarify, the last graph is representing data from my recordings, correct?

I've recorded YOUR samples through Audacity because I wanted to use the spectral analysis tool available in Audacity. ALL my graphs are about YOUR samples.

If it means anything I also have issues with strumming intervals high up the fretboard. Say strumming a third around high E 15th fret, even though the guitar will have great intonation on those two notes, it will sound completely off, as though there was an odd harmonic muddying up the sound. What you said reminded of that so I thought it might be helpful to share.

Also, I believe it's likely that the string isn't really buzzing from contact with the frets because the issue is still prevalent when using a slide, or not depressing the strings when playing. Therefore, a reaction with the bridge is an interesting conclusion that seems to fit.

Similar problems can happen when the angle of the neck relatively to the body makes the strings too parallel to the fretboard in the last frets... or when the neck exhibits a "step" due for example to an unproperly shaped shim in the neck pocket... but yes a parasitic vibration on or from the saddles is also a possible cause of screeching frequencies.

Anyways, let me reiterate, this is awesome research that you have done! This his given me a lot to think about.

No problem, it didn't take me much time (and I'm working at home today, so I can discuss a few minutes here and there). I hope it will help you to find a solution...

 

[Ascension]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Alright, so I did some quick recording. The first version is one where I demoed the pickups at Fender suggested heights, so, typically what you would see them at, without having an issue. The second version I recorded was with the pickups sunk done as far as they can go. The recordings were done with the Treble on my amp set about 2, the Tone at about 3.5, Mid at 4 and Bass at about 4. The licks I recorded were really just something random. I changed it a little bit in because I was noticing I was a getting a little lucky at times with the issue not reproducing. I also recorded this with just a 15ft GLS Audio instrument cable plugged directly into my amp which is a Laney Cub head and cab.

I started the recordings with the bridge pup and then slowly made my way to the neck pup. I recommend listening at generally louder volumes because of the nature of higher sounds. Also, if you want a quick guide on where you can hear it most prominently, you could check out the neck pup on the lower pickup heights, which is the last recording in the second version.

It's also strange how the recordings here make me sound almost as if I was really digging in hard when playing, but I was really only playing with moderate force and, at times, pretty softly.

No clipping occurred in these recordings whatsoever.

Anyways here are the links, (let me know if they work)

First Version:
https://soundcloud.com/zollokaptain/treble-issuestandard-pickup-height/s-JsWjm

https://soundcloud.com/zollokaptain/treble-issuelowest-pickup-height/s-sOGAV

Listening to those clips wonder if a Brass Trem block would not help a lot? Would certainly soften the attack and warm the tone up. Most will never think about how the Trem block affects your tone and attack but the effect is substantial in going to a different material or mass block.
I liked the pickup close to the strings also.

 

[Jacew]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Try raising the action high. That should make sure if it's related to string buzz or not.

Strats in general sounds better with action not too low. The problems of too low action are similar to what you're experiencing, as freefrog explained.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I definitely hear what you’re talking about and while I can’t really add more than Freedrog had already talked about, I feel like this sound is somehow mechanical in nature.
Check that everything is properly right.
Is tour trem block 100% secure?
Is a trem spring vibrating against something and transmitting through the pickup?

The fundamental tone of the pickup sounds normal to me but there is definitely a “something” in that high frequency going on but I don’t suspect the pickup.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I definitely hear what you’re talking about and while I can’t really add more than Freedrog had already talked about, I feel like this sound is somehow mechanical in nature.
Check that everything is properly right.
Is tour trem block 100% secure?
Is a trem spring vibrating against something and transmitting through the pickup?

The fundamental tone of the pickup sounds normal to me but there is definitely a “something” in that high frequency going on but I don’t suspect the pickup.

I known I probably shouldn't be glad that another person hears it, but I used to go to some guitar repair shops a while back and get basically laughed at, so this is a nice change of pace.

I can't really be 100% certain that the trem block is completely secure but I do know that there is no resonance created by th trem springs because I have tested dampening them as well as trying to strum them and haven't noticed anything unusual. Unless if there is another way I should be testing this?

Also, I agree that the pickup sounds about right but has this strange upper frequency to it, which, as freefrog has pointed out, seems to be odd harmonics.

Would the trem block be visibly vibrating or moving while playing if it wasn't secure?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Listening to those clips wonder if a Brass Trem block would not help a lot? Would certainly soften the attack and warm the tone up. Most will never think about how the Trem block affects your tone and attack but the effect is substantial in going to a different material or mass block.
I liked the pickup close to the strings also.

I do remember going for a setup on my guitar a while back, and as they were taking a look at my tremolo they said that somehow the very bottom of my trem bar snipped off a little and got stuck in the guitar. They told me they could either try drilling a hole to get it out which sounded absolutely insane or they could just replace the trem block, which is what I did. I can't really remember precisely how long I've had this issue for, but it's possible that the replacement of the trem block does correlate with the start of the issue.

One thing I have noticed though is that the hole for the trem bar in the bridge has a considerable angle in it, it's not straight down. So, when I try to keep the trem bar in the bridge it usually has a weird slant in it, and recently I have found it almost impossible to really screw it on because it only starts to get tight when the padded tip gets so low that it's blocked the bridge itself. I would have to kind force the tip a little up and over the bridge and have to deal with a very tight trem bar if I want to use it. So, I keep it off for now.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I known I probably shouldn't be glad that another person hears it, but I used to go to some guitar repair shops a while back and get basically laughed at, so this is a nice change of pace.

I can't really be 100% certain that the trem block is completely secure but I do know that there is no resonance created by th trem springs because I have tested dampening them as well as trying to strum them and haven't noticed anything unusual. Unless if there is another way I should be testing this?

Also, I agree that the pickup sounds about right but has this strange upper frequency to it, which, as freefrog has pointed out, seems to be odd harmonics.

Would the trem block be visibly vibrating or moving while playing if it wasn't secure?

Just remove the back cover plate and try to physically move the block back and forth by hand. You may need to pop the springs off (Easy enough to do). If it’s loose at all you’ll see it right away.

FWIW, the noise we hear is really really faint and almost undetectable. But it’s there nonetheless. It sounded like it only seemed to be present when certain notes or their frequencies were played. That’s what made me thing something physical or mechanical was loose or otherwise causing it.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Just remove the back cover plate and try to physically move the block back and forth by hand. You may need to pop the springs off (Easy enough to do). If it’s loose at all you’ll see it right away.

FWIW, the noise we hear is really really faint and almost undetectable. But it’s there nonetheless. It sounded like it only seemed to be present when certain notes or their frequencies were played. That’s what made me thing something physical or mechanical was loose or otherwise causing it.

Just took the backplate off, took all the springs off and the block is in there super solid, it was leaning against the wood away from the teeth., no give at all. It was actually a bit challenging to put the strings back on because the ends weren't really hooks, so I had to hold them in the hole while I used a flat-head to guide the springs over the teeth. When all the springs are on there's a little bit of give towards the teeth and away, but not so much that it indicates that the block might be loose. The block has no side to side movement.

Also, how loud did you listen to it at? On my laptop if I listen to it on headphones at about half volume I can just barely notice it. It really becomes apparent when you turn up more than that. It's also possible that now I'm just so used to hearing the sound that I can pick it out even when it's a bit subtle.

I wanted to provide a picture of the setup but it keeps telling me that the file has failed to upload, even though it is .jpg

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I might have just had a revelation right now.

I was playing my guitar unplugged as I sometimes do, after checking the tremolo block in the back. It was then that I started to notice something that sounded quiet at first until I acclimated to it. I played a pull-off and silenced my guitar but I could still hear something ringing. I did it again, playing other notes, and I started to put my ear closer to the guitar. First, I tried listening for the ringing in the back near the tremolo block but it sounded slightly muffled then, it might be because the backplate was still on. Then, I tried to listening to it at the bridge and I heard it. I heard a ringing kind of overtone emanating from the bridge. I'm not sure if it's the surface of the bridge making this sound or if it's inside the guitar, or if this is even a red herring or not, but this is easily the closest I feel I've been to recognizing the source of this issue. Freefrog, I believe you mentioned an idea about the bridge being a possibility. Still, I'm not completely rejecting the idea that it might still be the tremolo block that is causing this ringing, it's just that I hear it most strongly at the bridge.

What I think might be happening is that this ringing is being sent to the strings themselves and then being picked up the pups. That's mainly because if I silence my guitar while amplified the ringing will normally go away as well.

Does anyone have any thoughts?
I think we're really close here.

 

[Gtrjunior]

SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I listened to it on my iPhone this morning. Very subtle, but there.
Iirc, you said you didn’t have this issue with another set of pickups...? (Was that this thread or another one)
That leads me to believe that changing the block won’t help.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Just took the backplate off, took all the springs off and the block is in there super solid, it was leaning against the wood away from the teeth., no give at all. It was actually a bit challenging to put the strings back on because the ends weren't really hooks, so I had to hold them in the hole while I used a flat-head to guide the springs over the teeth. When all the springs are on there's a little bit of give towards the teeth and away, but not so much that it indicates that the block might be loose. The block has no side to side movement.

Also, how loud did you listen to it at? On my laptop if I listen to it on headphones at about half volume I can just barely notice it. It really becomes apparent when you turn up more than that. It's also possible that now I'm just so used to hearing the sound that I can pick it out even when it's a bit subtle.

I wanted to provide a picture of the setup but it keeps telling me that the file has failed to upload, even though it is .jpg

Is it possible that the block is vibrating against the wood? You said it was leaning against it...? Just a thought.

Actually...if it is leaning against the wood, away from the claw, then it is not set to float correct? You can’t pull up in the bar? Only dive?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I listened to it on my iPhone this morning. Very subtle, but there.
Iirc, you said you didn’t have this issue with another set of pickups...? (Was that this thread or another one)
That leads me to believe that changing the block won’t help.

Well the only pickup I have changed is the bridge pup for the SSL-5, everything else has remained stock. So, I can't really say.
Did you see my last message before you posted?
I feel you might have been writing your post as I posted.
Anyways, since the ringing seems to be related to hardware, I'm not sure we can be so sure that block isn't creating this ringing.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

No, what I meant in my last post was that when I took all the springs off, it leaned against the wood. When all the springs are on, the block does not make any contact with the wood.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Ok...yes I did miss that last post about the bridge.
Now try to narrow it down to whether it occurs one only one string or if it is more than one string. I’m thinking maybe a saddle could be at fault?

Try to make it make the noise and then Use your picking hand to try to cut off or mute the sound. Maybe you can actually touch what is causing it.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Ok...yes I did miss that last post about the bridge.
Now try to narrow it down to whether it occurs one only one string or if it is more than one string. I’m thinking maybe a saddle could be at fault?

Try to make it make the noise and then Use your picking hand to try to cut off or mute the sound. Maybe you can actually touch what is causing it.

Unfortunately, I am away from my setup right now. I'll be back home shortly, but I do know that it occurs on at least two or three strings. I'll see if I can actually silence it later.