Strat spring/trem question

[Farkus]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

In response to Mincer I remember reading in Guitar World, or one of those magazines, that during the development of his signature strat Fender had Clapton try out a Hardtail. He did not like the tone. Sorry to derail.

In terms of this post- i've always thought the break angle of the string over the saddle does make a difference in what you're feeling from a tension standpoint. Spring elasticity is also a factor so even though the tension should be balanced between the strings and the bridge when the "tail" is lower or higher relatively...FURTHER changesto the tension (like bending) could be variable and probably varies from spring to spring.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Hi
Jeff Beck uses his string gauge to facilitate easier bends and the best stability. This is what he did, and I did it too, to
all 3 Strats I own.
Gauge, hi to low: 9, 12 or 13,17, 28, 38, 52. I got this from several sources. The relatively light top strings are what he bends the most with his fingers. The very heavy 38, 52 are very tight so when he pulls up or goes down with the vibrato arm, the
tension of the big strings is very tight and brings the strings back in tune Fast, and quickly re establishes the resting, or in tune resting place. He has it set like Carl, so an up pull goes from open G to A# (step and a half), but as God or Karma is my witness that "angled claw" is BS, it works, just as well as straight. It is a matter of physics. Either way is equally good.
I use 9, 11, 16, 24, 38, 50. The heavy low strings is what makes Jeff Beck stay in tune so well. I don't have the strength to
use 12 or 13, 17, 28, so I must wimp out there.
Please try this, it's cheap, and instantly testable. I always say, use staggered locking tuners, so you can do away with string trees. No need for extra touching or grabbing, no matter how slight. And lastly, file the plate holes so the strings come out of the block straight to the saddles. Again - 1 less place to rub and strings don't break so easy, they last a much longer time. I have tried this out against 1 of my Strats that I did not touch yet and it was night and day better.
I have a feeling that folks think I am crazy over this set up, that it might be just a bunch of B.S. I assure everyone, it is not!
Thanks for reading, good luck,
Steve Buffington

Thanks for the tip. I do always use a mixed set of 8's or 7's types on the unwound but with .36, .42, .48 on the wound. I should even try .48, .52, .54 on the wound based on what you're saying. Also, a couple of my strats have saddles with elongated slots so there's not contact, and on a couple where there 'is' contact, I use string sleeves. But I should file them and go treeless with locking tuners and lube on the nut.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yeah, I've never used anything other than 10-52s with my strat-type guitars. That may factor a bit.

Also notable is that my guitars are equipped with 2 point Gotoh trems instead of the vintage 6-points.

Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk

I have one that had a two point with black saddles but swapped it with a post 2008 two point with the 'vintage' saddles. Not a gotoh but I love it. Floating two points have a distinct sweet feel compared to the six point.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

In terms of this post- i've always thought the break angle of the string over the saddle does make a difference in what you're feeling from a tension standpoint. Spring elasticity is also a factor so even though the tension should be balanced between the strings and the bridge when the "tail" is lower or higher relatively...FURTHER changesto the tension (like bending) could be variable and probably varies from spring to spring.

Where there is a 'functional length' of string behind the point in question you will. Nut to tuners is functional until such time as you put a locking nut on there. Bridge to tailpiece is functional in Gibson guitar for example. But put a wraptail on and the bit wrapped in non-functional as it is effectively fixed.
The difference in feel is the 'beyond scale length' string sections adding elasticity to the scale length section.

Reverse headstock strats also feel different.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

cato,
No need to go higher than 50 or 52 on the wound low E string. Especially with 36 and 42 on the wound D and A strings, man
that would be overkill. Don't use sleeves if they touch the plate. Sleeves are very sticky, in fact if you had very hard sleeves, it is just one more thing touching that DOES NOT NEED TO. Sorry about all caps there, but just between you and me, drill the hole so it does not touch. Out of the block there are only 3 spots the string has to touch: saddle, nut, REAR
LOCKING tuning peg. Make sure they stagger enough you don't need the string trees. I've done on all my Strats.
Plate? No.....String trees? No .....in fact, for the nut, if not roller, go with TusQXL !! Bone is great, but not on a trem bar. Bone can be sticky at times. TusQXL is pressed silicone, comes white, vintage, black, cream. THE BEST.
Steve Buffington

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

In terms of this post- i've always thought the break angle of the string over the saddle does make a difference in what you're feeling from a tension standpoint. Spring elasticity is also a factor so even though the tension should be balanced between the strings and the bridge when the "tail" is lower or higher relatively...FURTHER changesto the tension (like bending) could be variable and probably varies from spring to spring.

Where there is a 'functional length' of string behind the point in question you will. Nut to tuners is functional until such time as you put a locking nut on there. Bridge to tailpiece is functional in Gibson guitar for example. But put a wraptail on and the bit wrapped in non-functional as it is effectively fixed.
The difference in feel is the 'beyond scale length' string sections adding elasticity to the scale length section. Reverse headstock strats also feel different.

Hmm. I somehow overlooked farkus' post until I saw alexr's today. Very interesting theories/explanation from both of you, regarding the difference I'm feeling between a high and low float. Thanks!

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

cato,
No need to go higher than 50 or 52 on the wound low E string. Especially with 36 and 42 on the wound D and A strings, man
that would be overkill. Don't use sleeves if they touch the plate. Sleeves are very sticky, in fact if you had very hard sleeves, it is just one more thing touching that DOES NOT NEED TO. Sorry about all caps there, but just between you and me, drill the hole so it does not touch. Out of the block there are only 3 spots the string has to touch: saddle, nut, REAR
LOCKING tuning peg. Make sure they stagger enough you don't need the string trees. I've done on all my Strats.
Plate? No.....String trees? No .....in fact, for the nut, if not roller, go with TusQXL !! Bone is great, but not on a trem bar. Bone can be sticky at times. TusQXL is pressed silicone, comes white, vintage, black, cream. THE BEST.
Steve Buffington

Yeah I'm pretty heavy on the low three strings.
Which tuners do you use to get the height stagger and lock that you like? There are maybe four or five big names in quality.
And what did you use to lengthen the saddle slots? Hand file; Dremmel?
Thanks.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

cato,
The Fender Rear Locking tuners work just fine. I put them on tight as I can pull them(the strings)and screw the string in place. Tune it up about a turn maybe, then I break em in -bending, bending w/trem on all strings. THEN-unlock and pull the string though tight, lock it, tune it, and you wind up with maybe 1/2 turn. Do this one at a time after the initial break in period first tuning. These are staggered. The high E I shimmed between the back and matching head body, to lower it some more. I always leave some slack out of the tuner, if I need to loosen them and then re-use them.
If you want to spend more money PLEASE make sure you are getting REAR locking tuners, so if you need to loosen one you can leave slack to pull em back if needed. Grovers look nice, Stagger is a must. Some just clip em off inside so if you need to loosen a string, too bad, you can't. There is no slack, so as new string is needed. Like Sperzel, I think.
On the plate holes, hand sanding or files will take longer than a life time. Those plates are HARD! I used a heavy drill with the strongest bit I could find, (a set from StewMac) then I placed just the plate, everything off it, on a strong vice, and it took maybe 15-20 minutes to elongate each hole. A real pain, but WORTH every minute!
A Dremmel I think is not up to the job. This metal Fender is using (in the deluxe or elite trem) makes brass feel like warm butter. I think some (like Callaham or Wilkenson) already come with elongated holes, I am not sure, but someone besides myself MUST have figured that out by now. It is a huge selling point to me. But I know how to fix Fenders Tpo Trem system, so I just stayed with that, and at 64 YOA coming up, l don't think I'll be spending any money on any new guitars ever.
Parts, pickups, that's about it. Les Paul re-issue would be nice, but I can never play one standing up as anything over 6 pounds hurts me terribly for weeks after a show. And I haven't had any offers lately. So my memory lives on with YouTube,some home made DVD's and the old crowd I grew up with.
I lived the road life all over the 50 States, even Hawaii, played with big league stars, so I guess I did alright, but I still can't get enough of guitar, and am determined to get my sitar back together asap. So it sounds good, not like a bad 60's hippy movie. All my trem mods add up to the best without locking the nut or bridge.
Good luck from me to you.
Steve B.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

cato,
The Fender Rear Locking tuners work just fine. I put them on tight as I can pull them(the strings)and screw the string in place. Tune it up about a turn maybe, then I break em in -bending, bending w/trem on all strings. THEN-unlock and pull the string though tight, lock it, tune it, and you wind up with maybe 1/2 turn. Do this one at a time after the initial break in period first tuning. These are staggered. The high E I shimmed between the back and matching head body, to lower it some more. I always leave some slack out of the tuner, if I need to loosen them and then re-use them.
If you want to spend more money PLEASE make sure you are getting REAR locking tuners, so if you need to loosen one you can leave slack to pull em back if needed. Grovers look nice, Stagger is a must. Some just clip em off inside so if you need to loosen a string, too bad, you can't. There is no slack, so as new string is needed. Like Sperzel, I think.
On the plate holes, hand sanding or files will take longer than a life time. Those plates are HARD! I used a heavy drill with the strongest bit I could find, (a set from StewMac) then I placed just the plate, everything off it, on a strong vice, and it took maybe 15-20 minutes to elongate each hole. A real pain, but WORTH every minute!
A Dremmel I think is not up to the job. This metal Fender is using (in the deluxe or elite trem) makes brass feel like warm butter. I think some (like Callaham or Wilkenson) already come with elongated holes, I am not sure, but someone besides myself MUST have figured that out by now. It is a huge selling point to me. But I know how to fix Fenders Tpo Trem system, so I just stayed with that, and at 64 YOA coming up, l don't think I'll be spending any money on any new guitars ever.
Parts, pickups, that's about it. Les Paul re-issue would be nice, but I can never play one standing up as anything over 6 pounds hurts me terribly for weeks after a show. And I haven't had any offers lately. So my memory lives on with YouTube,some home made DVD's and the old crowd I grew up with.
I lived the road life all over the 50 States, even Hawaii, played with big league stars, so I guess I did alright, but I still can't get enough of guitar, and am determined to get my sitar back together asap. So it sounds good, not like a bad 60's hippy movie. All my trem mods add up to the best without locking the nut or bridge.
Good luck from me to you.
Steve B.

thanks so much steve for all the info and detailed instructions and tips on how to effectively use the locking tuners and elongating the saddle slots. it's true some of the saddles are made with longer slots. i got a replacement two point bridge with vintage style saddles for one of my strats and the slots are so long the strings don't touch. even if moved maximally towards the back of the bridge as when correcting for a very sharp 12th fretted note when intimating. not sure why they weren't always made that way.

are all fender tuners compatible with all strats? cause looking on amazon or ebay doesn't help cause there are no images showing how many pins (4 i assume) nor do they mention 'rear' locking.

by rear locking do you mean those thumb screws (like a wheel with a textured edge) that are located on the back of the tuber on the back of the head cap?

see this attached pic. does this look right?

can you send a youtube link to any of your performances? that'd be cool. regardless, sounds like you've lived a heck of a fun life as a musician and must have a book full of entertaining anecdotes, and i sure do appreciate you sharing your accumulated knowledge with me.

thanks again sir!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

There are a few different drilling standards. You'd need to now what sizes holes in the headstock you have and what the new tuners would have. Screw holes are secondary.....most tuners don't match and you'll get exposed holes but occasionally you do get a match.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yikes. So do you think even if I got fender tuners this still a chance the holes on the headstock won't be compatible with the tuner shafts?
What do people do typically when they replace the tuners? Do they take off the old ones measure the shafts and the holes and then get the dimensions of the shaft of the replacement tuner and make sure they match? Or do the vendors usually advertise a set of tuners being compatible with certain guitar makes and models?

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Cato,
Yes, those are the tuners, the knurled knobs ( Thumb Screws) are just there to screw a little ball bearing into your tuner till it goes far enough to push the string into the top of the tuner, AND you can leave some slack after it is real tight so you can undo it for quicker repairs, pickups, whatever. I have them on all my 3 working Strats. Make sure they are staggered, I can't tell by the photo. Also, make sure they are 6 IN A ROW! Not 3 X 3.
I have a Fender Jeff Beck Strat, Squire Strat, Bullet Strat (great finish, thinner, parts are ****, but I am upgrading it with all we have talked about) and 2 Chambered Strats I had a great luthier install a 2 point trem on them all. Not Warmoth.
The only trouble I had was on a couple Strats is I needed a little more room. I just used a thick rat tail to gently remove enough wood so the tuners would go in. It does not have to be perfect.
I have never even had a problem with the length, nor has it come up, not on any of my Strats any way. If you want to hear me play live with a crowd, I will tell you a couple:
Type in YouTube: Star Spangled Banner (then type in small caps) steve buffington (This was for some vets who wanted a clean version, but I had the band come in with an A chord at the end (trad: like Sousa wrote it)
Also type Eddie Gillan's Red Roosters: Stone Cold Sober (5 minutes?) and another one that is about 9 minutes long, from the
same show, I get 2 solos out of the 2 songs, not sure about title, but the background in the club is dark and bluish. My last solo, about 6:35 or so in the last song is my best. There are some s**t outside live video after a back surgery, you can tell, I look like s**t, but play ok, they are easy to spot as they are outside, and I have some kind of stupid disco looking shirt on. I was not having a good day. My last (probably forever) gig has me doing a fair solo. Type Steve Buffington Stongate. Or Eddie Gillans Red Roosters Up All Night, or try Stone cold Sober (posted by Gail or Loren Watts).
So, what brand tuners were those? I could have saved a lot of work. I thought they were all like that then saw one last year that looked like it had long holes. What an idiot, all that work, but being a shut in I don't go out at all except to exercise or
play a gig, where I pay a roadie 100.00 bucks to carry my stuff, and follow my orders, in a friendly way of course.
If you have trouble on you tube, let me know, I am in bed now, so don't have quick access to each word as they appear so I will check you tube tomorrow. I will check here to see if you can see them. I am quite proud of them, but who isn't proud of their own stuff. Better yet, criticism is even harder to come by, so feel free, I am very thick skinned about my playing, so if you think I suck, let me know. ATT: On the dark club dates I am using a 68 LPCustom I refinished, the others are a mix of Strats, Teles, all modified heavily inside.
Thanks
Steve Buffington

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Cool videos Steve. Must be some good memories. Nothing but a thumbs up on your playing. I especially like the ending solo on stone cold sober. Particularly nice sound from that Tele. And nice mix of the neck to bridge pup on the LP in the bluish night video. Think I hear a subtle use of a crybaby with that bridge pup on the first solo and ending riff. Maybe it's just your finger bends/vibrato cause it's subtle. I stopped there cause my cell phone is my Internet connection a youtube vids suck up my paltry 10 gigs of att data fast, and i just started a new cycle! Anyways I always played drums in a band and guitar for my own pleasure cause I could pay no mind to anyone or anything hiding behind the drumset but I never enjoyed playing guitar in front of anyone let alone a crowd. So you ain't gonna get no critique from THIS chicken sheeeIT !!
So I gotta be careful to make sure those tuners are staggered. I'll check the fender website and eBay and see if there are more detailed descriptions.
Thanks again man.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

I have tried the angled claw procedure but for some reason on all my trem equipped guitars, by the time I have adjusted the trem plate to float at equal height above the body, the claw gets an angle developed regardless. Besides, i was able to get the strings to get to pitch better by lubricating all contact points for the strings using white lithium grease, once a month or at whenever change of strings takes place.

Also its much easier to bend the strings with bridge decked at the back end, if you use less springs. The more springs you keep adding the more difficult it gets to bend them. But you end up bending the strings much further to reach a pitch with less springs than compared to if more springs were added. Conclusion, its a personal choice, whichever approach you take as it pleases your playing.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Cato,
Thanks for the nice revue, I might have used a wah on that, the Singer/Leader does not like wahs, so rather than getting into a fight about a wah, I eventually worked it off my pedal board.
Hank,
Couldn't agree more, personal choice is King.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

I have tried the angled claw procedure but for some reason on all my trem equipped guitars, by the time I have adjusted the trem plate to float at equal height above the body, the claw gets an angle developed regardless. Besides, i was able to get the strings to get to pitch better by lubricating all contact points for the strings using white lithium grease, once a month or at whenever change of strings takes place.

Also its much easier to bend the strings with bridge decked at the back end, if you use less springs. The more springs you keep adding the more difficult it gets to bend them. But you end up bending the strings much further to reach a pitch with less springs than compared to if more springs were added. Conclusion, its a personal choice, whichever approach you take as it pleases your playing.

yeah i have been lubricating all contact points but with a Qtip and vaseline--go ahead, laugh. but i have white lithium grease i use for my firearms, so i should use that instead. and funny, i dropped to two springs on two strats that looked like they had the same tension springs, but they were different; one of them allows for wide bends like you said, but the other one has springs with apparently less tension so I can only bend up about a step no matter how hard I try cause the springs are too lax. i popped the high E trying to bend higher. that one has to keep three springs unless i get new higher tensioned ones.
thanks!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yikes. So do you think even if I got fender tuners this still a chance the holes on the headstock won't be compatible with the tuner shafts?
What do people do typically when they replace the tuners? Do they take off the old ones measure the shafts and the holes and then get the dimensions of the shaft of the replacement tuner and make sure they match? Or do the vendors usually advertise a set of tuners being compatible with certain guitar makes and models?

Tuner makers simply advertise their dimensions, and rely on the purchaser to make sure what they buy suits. There are very few guitar makers that would ever advertise headstock hole size even if the tuner companies went above and beyond in getting an endless stream of data from the many guitar companies around the world.

But your headstock is wood.....so there are drills that can change hole sizes.

 

[cato]

Strat spring/trem question

Cato,
Thanks for the nice revue, I might have used a wah on that, the Singer/Leader does not like wahs, so rather than getting into a fight about a wah, I eventually worked it off my pedal board.
Hank,
Couldn't agree more, personal choice is King.

what the singer says goes huh? sounds like a real diva 0
so looks like lucky for me kluson has these new 'revolution' locking tuners that retrofit to CBS era strats with the F tuners that screw in. currently they are the only company that makes locking tuners of this type. i also have a 62 reissue type Strat with the kluson H style tuners (not sure if that's what they are referred to) but looks like no one makes locking ones of that type for strats, and i'm not cool drilling/modding so those will stay as is. fortunately those tuners are exceptional. rock solid, no play, and subjectively a much higher gear ration than the others.
correction. looks like kluson makes those too. they have H mount locking tuners which looks just like the ones on my 62 type. hopefully they are!

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

cato,
No matter what, locking tuners are best. Some say "Hey, I do find without them" Good! Guess who didn't? Jeff Beck.
And Jeff a Beck is a mechanic too, so I am sure he knows how to string a tuner to stay in place as good as any one on the planet.
Except Beck used his Trem so hard all the time, well, I have had ten bootlegs, vinyl, from the old days, '70's, and each one is so awful after 3-4 songs, it is a tuning fest the rest of the night. I could not listen to them. A lot of pre locking tuner bootlegs are on the web and he goes out of tune all the time. Now, since his roller nut is paired with locking tuners, all the live stuff is perfect. I have only seen him tune one string, once!
On springs, I use (from Allparts) 2 "vintage" springs ( they are pretty stiff, so 2 is plenty) on the outside of the block the inside "2" and "4" crimped metal on the claw, if you follow me, and a black Fender coated spring (a little more play) right up the middle to the "3" crimped metal. This is called a "fan spread".
The normal Fender ones are too loose for me. (My personal choice) so the 2 stiffer vintage ones are almost enough, a 3rd vintage is too much, so I go half way with a fender black coated spring to give me the balance and feel that I like. Remember, my gauge is 9, 11,16,24,36-38,50-52. And I set it to pull up a step and a half. This is perfect for me. Also a guy I know at a gun shop has a mixture of the finest gun oils he uses for himself.
If I had your guitar it would take me maybe an hour or two to figure it out with different gauges and different up pull that you like.
Hey, when you get it right, play it for a few weeks, then go to a regular fixed bridge, like a Les Paul, (at least for me) I feel like something is missing.
Good luck, can't wait till you have it set just right for yourself.
Steve Buffington

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Check your sources again on Beck's strings. He hasn't used 9s for a long time. He uses 11-52 or 54.