Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

Low_fidelity2100

Low_fidelity2100

New member
I never really play my 80's Fender Concert Up that loudly. I'm not gigging right now, and When I have in the past I almost always used someone else's amps. But I'm planning on retubeing my amp really soon. Not cause it nessicarrily Needs it (tubes are less than a year old) but because I wanna try out some other stuff.

Anyways, while recording some stuff yesterday, I noticed That anything past 4.5 on the clean channel Volume Is pretty gritty (And pretty loud), and From 6-10 The volume doesn't increase Too much, but just adds more saturation (and sounds great). Now this would probably be kool for most people. But I tend to get my dirt from pedals, and Like my amp to stay as clean as possible.
Obviously the Lead channel is Much more distorted at the same volume settings as the clean channel, which is how its suppoused to be. But the fact that I don't really have all That much clean headroom kinda buggs me. Like I said I'm not gigging right now, and when I do I normally use other peoples amps. But I'de like to know that if I do endup having to use my own amp in the future, that I can actually get some Clean out of it! haha.

Heres whats currently In the amp...
Preamp, V1 is a Marshall labled ECC83 (I have no idea who actually made the tube but it sounds really good) The rest are Just Groove tubes Labled "12AX7/7025"
Reverb driver and phase inverter are both Groove Tubes 12AT7's
And the poweramp is Sovtek 6L6GB.

The amp sounds fantastic when it does distort, Esspecially on the clean channel with the volume at about 9. Just great ac/dc sorta sound too it. But thats not what I'm looking for.

So please suggest me some tubes (Or possibly speakers, although the speakers don't seem to be breaking up at all) for great clean tones, and high headroom. I know I'm never gonna get it to stay clean all the way to 10, But if I can get clean up until 5 or 6 at least, Thats good enough for me. The amp is pretty loud when its right on the edge of Grit, But I'de still like to get a touch more clean headroom outta it.

Also If anyones got experiance with these amps (80's Rivera designed Fender Concert) if they're Just Made to not have much clean headroom, Lemme know. I love the amp, and it sounds Great clean, and when it does start to break up I love that sound too. So If I'm trying to make it do something Its just not meant to do, I'de rather not waste a bunch of time Trying to make it Stay super clean, if it just can't do it. So I'll just look into getting another amp that does cleans well, and Use the Concert for Dirt, cause It seems to Sound amazing Dirty anyways. haha.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions. And sorry This is soooo long. I tend to ramble.
 
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Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

I used to have the same problem with my Twin. Love Fender clean tone but there is a limit. Now I'm using a Carvin XV-212 and I can't turn the clean channel up enough for it to distort. It's way too loud but still has that Fender sound. Amazing!
You might want to try a 12AU7 in the preamp (V1) to cool things down. Should do the trick. Did you ever sell the Jazzmaster?
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

saladin said:
I used to have the same problem with my Twin. Love Fender clean tone but there is a limit. Now I'm using a Carvin XV-212 and I can't turn the clean channel up enough for it to distort. It's way too loud but still has that Fender sound. Amazing!
You might want to try a 12AU7 in the preamp (V1) to cool things down. Should do the trick. Did you ever sell the Jazzmaster?
Click to expand...

Cool thanks for the suggestion.

Still got the jazzmaster, I decided to just keep it. I'de miss it too much if I lost it again.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

Split the difference gain-wise---try a 5751/12AT7/12AY7. You might also want to try Winged C 6L6GC or a STR-type 6L6 if you want more headroom...I believe those Rivera-era amps were UL OT's (could be wrong about that) but some of those Fender 75's and 30's were UL; should have a lot of headroom.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

If your amp is breaking up, there's one of several things happening. Either your preamp tubes are breaking up (in which case you would notice this at lower volume levels), your speakers are breaking up (which you would only notice when it's cranked really really loud), or your power amp tubes are breaking up (which you would only notice when it's really really loud).

If you want more volume before breakup, you would definitely get it with a speaker replacement - as long as you get a more efficient speaker. This way your speakers would not break up (since they'd be designed to handle the power better) and your tubes aren't pushing as much juice (so they're less likely to break up). You could also try adding additional cabs (or a bigger cab) to your amp to spread more volume out.

I doubt you would get significantly more volume without breakup by simply replacing the tubes.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

GuitarStv said:
If your amp is breaking up, there's one of several things happening. Either your preamp tubes are breaking up (in which case you would notice this at lower volume levels), your speakers are breaking up (which you would only notice when it's cranked really really loud), or your power amp tubes are breaking up (which you would only notice when it's really really loud).

If you want more volume before breakup, you would definitely get it with a speaker replacement - as long as you get a more efficient speaker. This way your speakers would not break up (since they'd be designed to handle the power better) and your tubes aren't pushing as much juice (so they're less likely to break up). You could also try adding additional cabs (or a bigger cab) to your amp to spread more volume out.

I doubt you would get significantly more volume without breakup by simply replacing the tubes.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was actually thinking about replaceing the speaker anyways. But I have no idea what speaker, haha. I was thinking of an Eminence "Commonwealth" Which is suppoused to be they're version of The old JBL E-120, But they're a tad more expensive than I'de like. I also dunno if it would be Way to bright or not. I Have no clue when it comes to speakers.

If I ever Gig with the amp I'll most certainly use a 212 or 412 extention cab of some sort (more than likely Just disconnect the Internal speaker and Plug the Cab into the Main speaker jack as I don't trust extension speaker jacks).
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

[QUOTE
I doubt you would get significantly more volume without breakup by simply replacing the tubes.[/QUOTE]

Try a set of 7581A's instead of the Slobteks...big difference.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

I have that same amp, and it will get a really loud clean sound without breaking up. In fact, I've never taken it as loud as it will go.

I think, in part, it's because of the stock EVM-12L speaker. Really outstanding speaker.

But if you're breaking up at 4.5 and your tubes aren't completely dead...you probably should have somebody take a look at it. That's definitely not right.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

ES350 said:
Split the difference gain-wise---try a 5751/12AT7/12AY7. You might also want to try Winged C 6L6GC or a STR-type 6L6 if you want more headroom...I believe those Rivera-era amps were UL OT's (could be wrong about that) but some of those Fender 75's and 30's were UL; should have a lot of headroom.
Click to expand...

I'm really not sure what a UL OT is? I know OT is output transformer. But I have no clue as to what UL means, haha. Sorry.

But anyways. Winged C is the same as SED right? Seems like everyone I talk to keeps suggesting Winged C more than any other 6L6, So I think I'm gonna have to try those out. haha.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

blackflag said:
I have that same amp, and it will get a really loud clean sound without breaking up. In fact, I've never taken it as loud as it will go.

I think, in part, it's because of the stock EVM-12L speaker. Really outstanding speaker.

But if you're breaking up at 4.5 and your tubes aren't completely dead...you probably should have somebody take a look at it. That's definitely not right.
Click to expand...

Mine doesn't have the EVM-12L speaker. They made em with the EV speakers, and also made em with Just a standard Fender speaker (dunno who actually made it though). Thats probably why yours doesn't break up, Guess I just need a new/better speaker, haha. I'm possitive the fender speaker has WAY lower power rateings than an EV, and is most certainly way less efficent too. Maybe I am getting speaker break up? Seems like it should be more Farty sounding if its speaker breakup though.
I also think its partially due to me useing 6L6GB's instead of GC's. GB's are rated lower, and have less output (GB=25watts, GC=30watts). So they'll always breakup earlyer than GC's. Which is part of why I wanna get different output tubes. At the time I bought the tubes, I hadn't really done much reading up on tube types, So I thought any 6L6 was basically the same.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

Putting a compressor infront to tame the peaks should net a little more clean headroom...another 20% or so if your lucky. Might be enough...might not be.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

Get some better more efficient speakers.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

A cleaner speaker would help...and get rid of the 6L6GB's. They aren't designed for the kind of plate voltages that are in BF type output sections...if your amp is anything like the Concert II, it's trying to put out 60 watts, which suggests plate voltages in the 470VDC range. No wonder it distorts...
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

ES350 said:
A cleaner speaker would help...and get rid of the 6L6GB's. They aren't designed for the kind of plate voltages that are in BF type output sections...if your amp is anything like the Concert II, it's trying to put out 60 watts, which suggests plate voltages in the 470VDC range. No wonder it distorts...
Click to expand...

Yeah, my amp is a Concert II. It was in the II series but didn't have the II in the name. But it is a Rivera designed '83 "Concert II".
But anyways Your right as far as the 6L6GB's. I'm still learning all about all the different tube types and variations. At the time I bought those (about May last year) I figured all 6L6's were basically the same, Just sounded different. Now I know thats totally not the case. So I KNOW I need to get some different tubes in there and I'm gonna real soon. And a different speaker too.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

So, I took the Sovtek 6L6GB's out, and Put in the Set of Groove Tubes 6L6S's that were in there Before I replaced them with the Sovteks. And I've got a whole butt load more clean headroom now, Can turn the clean channel up to almost 8 before I get a noticeable amount of grit! And what Grit I do get at that point seems to be speaker breakup. Its a whole hell of a lot louder now too. haha. And it sounds way way better too.

Now I'm trying to figure out Why I replaced the GT's in the first place? haha. I am still gonna buy some Winged C/SED's like everyone keeps telling me too though.
 
Re: Suggestions for More Clean Headroom?

As everyone else is saying, look at more efficient speakers.

Fenders like to break up around 4.5 - 5 on the volume dial with stock speakers. At least this is my experience with my '70 Fender Vibrolux Reverb. It was almost unusable in just about any decently loud band, so I looked around and picked up Celestion Vintage 10 speakers (pretty much the 10'' equivalents of Vintage 30 12'' speakers) and the extra power handling allowed me to get a lot more out of the amp. It doesn't quite have the same breakup as before, but that's a tradeoff to have the cleans keep together at high volumes.
 
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