Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

A bit of a big ask here. I have a Suhr that I want to change the pickups for some PRS HFS / VB pickups that I recently acquired. I want to keep the Suhr pickup selections as shown in the attachment that use a 5 way superswitch. View attachment Wiring.pdf

I know superswitches vary, but somebody cleverer than me, knowing the wiring colours and the combinations shown in the pdf, I think would understand what is going on on the Suhr.

We know that Suhr pickups use the same code as SD and that PRS use Black for live, red for split, white for ground.

However, that is for the bridge pickup, for the neck pickup they say to use white for live and black for ground.

Also, for splitting they say to take split (red) to hot for the Bridge pickup and red to ground for the Neck pickup – which is suggested to get the slug coil for the best split sounds.

The PRS detail is here http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/pickups.pdf

If anyone is both kind and clever enough to help me out here it would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Andy

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Update - I've just read up on Superswitches and think that the Suhr design already takes the neck tap to ground and the bridge tap to live. So I think I just need to swap the use of ground and live wires for the bridge and neck pickups.....and to locate the PRS neck pickup such that the lug coil is closest to the neck.....which is the opposite to how it would normally be - the lug coils are normally innermost...

Does anyone have a visio or other editable wiring representation so that I can offer up my suggested wiring for scrutiny?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Andy, running to a meeting, so very, very fast look over- but what I think you are asking is, how to replace the suhr pups with PRS pups?

Again, this is really fast, but looks like both Suhrs start with black-
The neck PRS also starts with black, so the PRS black takes the place of the Suhr neck's black, the red goes to where the red/yellow is and the white goes to ground on the vol pot.

For the bridge pup, PRS red also replaces red/yellow of the Suhr, however black and white flip- black grounds on vol pot and white goes where the Suhr black was going.

Again, I may be missing your request or reading too fast, so someone double check my logic-

Peace
Zstrat

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Andy, running to a meeting, so very, very fast look over- but what I think you are asking is, how to replace the suhr pups with PRS pups?

Again, this is really fast, but looks like both Suhrs start with black-
The neck PRS also starts with black, so the PRS black takes the place of the Suhr neck's black, the red goes to where the red/yellow is and the white goes to ground on the vol pot.

For the bridge pup, PRS red also replaces red/yellow of the Suhr, however black and white flip- black grounds on vol pot and white goes where the Suhr black was going.

Again, I may be missing your request or reading too fast, so someone double check my logic-

Peace
Zstrat

Thanks so much Zstrat....that was my question, and I was hoping that would be the case. I have three further questions.

1. If the Suhr position 4 was out of phase, but I'm thinking that to be unlikely as it would sound much lower output than it does...but I could be wrong.

2. Why PRS flip their live and ground wires?

and

3. Much more to understand.....how polarity and phase are related.....eg, I assume in the way PRS ask for it to be wired the position 4 will be hum cancelling? But I could really do with understanding how these things work.....can I assume that the PRS slug coil will be the same polarity on both pickups....even though the phase (the direction of current) will be different because the live and ground are reversed for each pickup? Does that mean SD wind their humbucker in opposite directions so that they get the hum cancelling with using the same live and ground for both pickups? Does it matter that I'll be turning the neck pickup the "wrong way" (slug coils are both normally pointing at each other) in order to get the slug coil closest to the neck to best mimic what Suhr do (position 2) and to folllow the PRS advice that the slug coil sounds best?

That was probably more than 3 questions

Cheers,
Andy

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Good questions-
In no particular order-
1. No idea why there are no standard pup wire colors or why PRS flips theirs- one of the first things that you will learn here is to look it up for each pup and maybe someone else can give us the history.

2. search google for reverse wind reverse polarity (RWRP) and you will find simple and complex explanations about phase, noise cancelation, etc- to address one of your questions, instead of reverse winding, you can also invert start and stop wires, but magnet has to be right as you are otherwise throwing pup out of phase- too complex for here, start with simple articles and dig in (this is a great forum to search).

3. RWRP is a big thing when mixing pickups, but it's safe to assume that the Suhr set and PRS sets are RWRP with themselves- as a result, if you want exactly the same functionality you had with the surhrs, you just wire them exactly the same as I described in my first post. The PRS pups should perform exactly as the Suhrs did.

On the other hand, if you want to change which slugs are selected, etc, you are talking about some rewiring- an exception is if you simply want to turn a pup around 180 degrees- ie if you want to move slug coils to the extremes- all you are doing in this case is changing what part of the pickup sees what part of the strings, its a physical change, electronics are wired the same.

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Hmm, just getting ready to wire and I've noticed two things.

1. PRS say the white should be hot for the neck (not the bridge as suggested above) but black hot for the bridge (not white as suggested above).
2. PRS say to shunt the split wire to ground for the neck and hot for the bridge....but the Suhr wiring seems to shunt the bridge to ground....but flips in position 4.

I'm not clear now how to wire in the PRS pickups

Help!

Cheers,
Andy

 

[gregory]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

IIRC, PRS does the inner-slug coil thing. In order for it to be hum-cancelling the wind direction on one pickup needs to be reversed and then the magnetic polarity will also have to be reversed so that the pickup coils remain in-phase. Since the split point didn't change, the pair needs to be taken up to the hot end instead of to ground in order to continue splitting to the inner slug coil.

I don't remember the PRS color scheme, but with SD colors, if you flip the magnet and still want to split to the slug coil by still taking the connected pair to ground, you need to connect the green and black together, run the red wire to ground and the white wire to hot.

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Hi,

PRS only has hot ground and a split wire. The wiring is here.

The Suhr wiring is shown like this View attachment H0HR5110 - 2 (1).pdf but in reality it is physically achieved like this

Hoping for some simple guidance

Cheers,
Andy

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

IIRC, PRS does the inner-slug coil thing. In order for it to be hum-cancelling the magnetic polarity needs to be reversed and then the wind direction will also have to be reversed so that the pickup coils remain in-phase.

Gregory,
I've had to mess with magnets and polarity of PRS pups when combining with other pups, but I didn't quite understand why Andy needs to reverse mag and polarity within a matched pair in this case- Is it because the wrong coil would be selected in the split positions?

Always trying to learn and seems like PRS is always the exception

Andy-
"1. PRS say the white should be hot for the neck (not the bridge as suggested above) but black hot for the bridge (not white as suggested above).
2. PRS say to shunt the split wire to ground for the neck and hot for the bridge....but the Suhr wiring seems to shunt the bridge to ground....but flips in position 4."

1. Why did the wiring colors change from your first post? Did PRS point you to alternate wire colors? If so, can you share link?
2. Assuming we are understanding all of the PRS questions listed above, I believe your PRS pups are simply using a single shunt wire that acts like the combination of the finish of coil 1 and start of coil 2 with the Suhrs- If all of the above is true, the PRS shunt wire simply needs to go where the 2 combined suhr wires originally went-

To sum it up-
1. We need to know if any phase flipping is needed in this case, per note to Gregory
2. We need to know for certain the wiring scheme for your PRS pups

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Hi there,

The short answer is I simply misread the PRS info and I think your original instructions but swapping white and black would work. The more lengthy answer is....

The wiring is as per this link....I simply rushed and mixed up the wires for the neck and bridge. It is indeed a single split wire (red) and the wiring for coil tap (shunt) is shown too www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/pickups.pdf

Checking, the Suhr wiring already shunts the neck coil to ground for position 2 which is what PRS advise for their pickups.

For position 4, the Suhr wiring shunts the neck coil to hot (contrary to PRS advice for their pickups) in combination with the bridge going to ground (also contrary to PRS advice). However, my understanding is that, so long as I have wired my wires correctly (black for Bridge and white for Neck) I'll simply have the screw rather than the slug coils selected on each. I shouldn't have any phase or other issues.....it's just not what PRS advise in terms of the better sounding half of the humbucker.

Having read this, the diagram I put together of the actual wiring and the original Suhr wiring...and with apologies for my original mistake:

1. Do you agree with what I think the Suhr wiring is doing?
2. Do you think in that case that I simply replace the red / white Suhr pickup wiring with the red split of the PRS, wire in the PRS black wire where I have indicated the Bridge Hot, and the white wire where I have indicated the White Hot?

Of course I'd rather comply with the PRS recommendations....but I'm thinking that doing this is a very easy job, and with before after recordings it seems the main "risk" is simply position 4 not being optimal.

If position 4 is something I really don't like but I do like all the other combinations, perhaps at that point I ask advice on how to completely re-wire to do what PRS recommend.

Does that make some kind of sense?

Thanks so much,
Andy

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

1. Yes
2. Yes

And yes, I imagine the only reason to rewire the PRS would be to change coils, but as you said, you want something simple and it should work as we originally discussed-

Also, it never hurts to try something- If we are really missing something you should know in about an hour

 

[gregory]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Gregory,
I've had to mess with magnets and polarity of PRS pups when combining with other pups, but I didn't quite understand why Andy needs to reverse mag and polarity within a matched pair in this case- Is it because the wrong coil would be selected in the split positions?

Is Andy putting in a pair of PRS pickups or a pair of Suhr pickups? Do Suhr pickups adhere to the Duncan standard color code and magnetic polarity, which is the outer (normally) screw coils being South and inner (usually) slug coils being North?

If the answer is yes to both and isn't a waste of Andy's time then I will answer your question, or you are welcome to start a separate discussion. I will gladly answer it as succinctly as I can, though I will likely end up repeating myself since I've touched on the topic on numerous occasions.

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

1. Yes
2. Yes

And yes, I imagine the only reason to rewire the PRS would be to change coils, but as you said, you want something simple and it should work as we originally discussed-

Also, it never hurts to try something- If we are really missing something you should know in about an hour

Thanks - unfortunately other factors will make it take a few hours I fear.....

1. The pickups direct mount to the Suhr. The feet on the PRS pups are square....the route is for the triangular feet of the Suhr pups. So I'll be marking and cutting the PRS feet to the right shape. I'll also be finding screws small enough to go through the PRS threaded hole without chewing it....and filling the receiving holes in the body with match sticks and superglue to give them something to grip into.
2. The legs on the Suhr pups are short, they are long on the PRS....however I have them close to the strings and had to raise up the Suhrs quite a lot, so I'm hoping not to have to cut out any wood to accommodate the PRS pups. The actual pickups are the same height from the base plate up so it is "just" maybe 5mm we are talking about...
3. For my own interest and as promised to some other Suhr owners I need to make some before and after recordings of the five positions both clean and with gain for before / after comparison....

I will report back!

Cheers,
Andy

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Is Andy putting in a pair of PRS pickups or a pair of Suhr pickups? Do Suhr pickups adhere to the Duncan standard color code and magnetic polarity, which is the outer (normally) screw coils being South and inner (usually) slug coils being North?

If the answer is yes to both and isn't a waste of Andy's time then I will answer your question, or you are welcome to start a separate discussion. I will gladly answer it as succinctly as I can, though I will likely end up repeating myself since I've touched on the topic on numerous occasions.

Pair of PRS... Check previous, look workable?


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[gregory]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

but in reality it is physically achieved like this

Nice job on saving an entire pole worth of switching! You can use that to further manipulate your tone.

I've marked up your wiring per the PRS pickup diagram (note the hot wire of the neck pickup is white):



While it is not in line with the Suhr diagram ("Neck Coil 1" is connected to white and black, whereas a Duncan screw coil is connected to green and red), make sure the outer coils are the screw coils and the inner ones are the slug coils.

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Nice job on saving an entire pole worth of switching! You can use that to further manipulate your tone.

I've marked up your wiring per the PRS pickup diagram (note the hot wire of the neck pickup is white):

View attachment 83310

While it is not in line with the Suhr diagram ("Neck Coil 1" is connected to white and black, whereas a Duncan screw coil is connected to green and red), make sure the outer coils are the screw coils and the inner ones are the slug coils.

Hi Gregory,

I'd love to take the praise for the physical wiring, but it's just how I found it when opening the guitar - as done by the factory.

I hadn't seen your post, but in between childcare I had wired up as last discussed with zionstrat. The good news is that it's given me what I was hoping for.....well, in all positions but position 4.

It was always an interim experiment anyhow as the neck route is too shallow so I'm going to have to cut away some wood to sink the pickup further in. I didn't want to do that until I knew I was happy with the results. Now that I am going to do that I'm ready to see if I can improve the wiring still further....and there is your post waiting for me

However, I'm not clear on some things from your diagram - which I am very grateful for you doing.

We know for PRS white is hot for the neck and that the split should go to ground.

We know for PRS black is hot for the bridge and that the split should go to live.

In your position 2, the neck split seems to go to live? Isn't that wrong?

Then we get a bit more complicated and probably showing my lack of understanding.

In your position 4, the bridge split seems to go to live (good), and the neck split seems to go to ground (good). However I'm trying to understand what happens when we have the common live going to the neck live (white) and then the split going to ground. I assume that means the live is the start of the slug coil and that's why the split goes to ground? I assume if that weren't the case that we'd either have the wrong coil being shunted or .....actually I'm not sure what else the impact could be!?

I appreciate the same thing was happening for the neck pickup in position 2 with the original wiring.

Finally, I put my neck humbucker with the slug coil closest to the neck as that is how the Suhr was wired and it sounded great. Is there any reason why I should turn it around so that the slug coils of each humbucker face each other?

Thanks for all your help,
Andy

 

[gregory]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

The diagram I marked-up provides the Suhr-style combinations for a PRS neck/bridge humbucker set.

1: Neck in series

(black ground, white hot)​

2: Neck screw coil

(black ground, red hot)​

3: Neck in series combined with bridge in series

(Neck: black ground, white hot) (Bridge: white ground, black hot)​

4: Neck slug coil combined with bridge slug coil

(Neck: red ground, white hot) (Bridge: white ground, red hot)​

5: Bridge in series

(white ground, black hot)​

All positions but 2 should be hum-cancelling.
All combinations should be in-phase.
Pickups are intended to be oriented so the slug coils are on the inside.
The black wire of the neck pickup and the white wire of the bridge pickup should be hard-wired to ground along with the braided shields.

If there are any combinations you would like to substitute, just ask. The Super Switch should be able to accommodate, though PRS pickups are 3-wire instead of 4, precluding them from being run in parallel mode.

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

The diagram I marked-up provides the Suhr-style combinations for a PRS neck/bridge humbucker set.

1: Neck in series

(black ground, white hot)​

2: Neck screw coil

(black ground, red hot)​

3: Neck in series combined with bridge in series

(Neck: black ground, white hot) (Bridge: white ground, black hot)​

4: Neck slug coil combined with bridge slug coil

(Neck: red ground, white hot) (Bridge: white ground, red hot)​

5: Bridge in series

(white ground, black hot)​

All positions but 2 should be hum-cancelling.
All combinations should be in-phase.
Pickups are intended to be oriented so the slug coils are on the inside.
The black wire of the neck pickup and the white wire of the bridge pickup should be hard-wired to ground along with the braided shields.

If there are any combinations you would like to substitute, just ask. The Super Switch should be able to accommodate, though PRS pickups are 3-wire instead of 4, precluding them from being run in parallel mode.

Hi,

How could I change position 2 to be the slug coil rather than the screw coil of the neck pickup?

Currently with position 4 being the screw coils of each PRS pickups it sounds a little thinner compared to the slug coil of the neck pickup alone in position 2. I'm guessing with PRS pickups there is a fair difference in the sound of the slugs vs screw coils...

Cheers,
Andy

 

[gregory]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Location can make a significant difference!

Of course two separated split coils combined in parallel will sound thinner than one split coil, especially when one of the coils is coming from the thinnest/weakest position the guitar can provide (coil closest to the bridge). It's not unlike comparing bridge + middle on a Strat vs. neck alone on a Strat.

I would try a screw coil in the strongest position before dismissing it. Two inside coils will also be an improvement over what is currently going on in position 4.

Anyway, here is an updated diagram using the inner coil of the neck for position 2:

 

[andyg_prs]

Re: Swapping Suhr Pickups with PRS ones.....how?

Location can make a significant difference!

Of course two separated split coils combined in parallel will sound thinner than one split coil, especially when one of the coils is coming from the thinnest/weakest position the guitar can provide (coil closest to the bridge). It's not unlike comparing bridge + middle on a Strat vs. neck alone on a Strat.

I would try a screw coil in the strongest position before dismissing it. Two inside coils will also be an improvement over what is currently going on in position 4.

Ok. I should have said that the relative "strength" of positions 2 and 4 were very similar with the original pickups. I don't doubt that position 4 will be better with the inner slug coils. PRS say their slug coils sound better than their screw coils...and as you say, the positions.

Are slug coils generally better sounding?

For position 2 I guess I was concerned about changing that to the screw coil in case it suddenly was sub par. I assume getting the slug coil for position 2 whilst maintaining the slug coils for position 4 is a tough one?

I also only really want to remove the strings once more. But I have to do that once anyway in order to route out some wood for the neck pickup feet. At the same time I can flip the pickup - currently I have the slug coil closest to the neck to emulate the coil used in the Suhr wiring.

Many thanks again for your advice - your time is much appreciated.

Regards,
Andy