T-Tops

[Aceman]

How did I mis this?!?!?!?!?

I currently have 3 T-Tops. I hate T-tops* but if you like them, great. You do you. I maintain that
1. They are not bad. But they are also not great for anything.
2. They are definitely one of the reasons for the after market pickup business growth
3. They are pickups that want to be a Duncan Jazz, but are not.

My 1979 Les Paul came loaded with T-Tops. I futzed incessantly with the pickups and couldn't get the sound I wanted. I started listening to and playing guitars from guys I knew with aftermarkets and ran into a Distortion loaded Les Paul. I was playing Priest/Maiden/Scorpions/Accept, Quiet Riot/Krokus and such at the time. THAT was the pickup I wanted needed. Got that for the Bridge and it is there today. Sometime in the late 80's early 90's? I LEFT there T-top in it, and am not ever removing it. Why? I like the range from metal screamer to mild. I liked the Richrath tones it got, and it killed for Sweet Child, and generally Bluesy playing. It improved when I went to a 500k neck controls (from a 300k stock). Still there, keeping it. I can Slash all damn day.

That said, my 1973 Tobacco Standard has a PAF and a Super Distortion, and no surprise what that is. A T-Top was NEVER going to give me the Frehley sounds in a significant way.

I have a 79 The Paul that currently has a pair of T-tops. I have had it a year or two now. I play it. And they are "ok" in the most ok sense of the word. I get it. In the 70's Gibson/Norlin put pretty much one pickup in everything. And just like the more extreme 490/498, you could with an appropriate amp and a pedal, play most anything. I will change them eventually, just not at the top of my "must swap" list. But then again, that guitar is really kind of a novelty. I'm not really using it for anything specific, or in general. Kind of like "I'll have some low-fat Vanilla ice cream tonight."

But once DiMarzio and Duncan came out - there were wayyyy better pickups for anything you wanted to do, and even more so today.

This is very different from my 57/57+. I changed those, but I would have been just fine with them for my overall purposes in Irish. But like I said, a PG set with a 9k bridge just had a little more of what I really wanted. I don't hate Gibson pickups on principle. I really like BB1/2/3 combos, Dirty Fingers, and 500k's. and now 57/57+ sets., depending on my purpose.

As for Schenker, his tone was nothing I think anyone was chasing in the 70's (His playing, another story! Kinda like Rhoads). In the 80's he went to DiMarzio, and eventually Dean. I have a Schenker V with Dean Lights out pickups and really like them. Would never swap for T-Tops.

I think Mincer said it best: Vintage pickups from a legacy company - people are gonna be interested. I was there in the late 70's. Nobody was interested. Classic 59 PAFs, SuperD's JB's, and such. T-Tops haven;t been of interest since the mid 70's and they were not of interest then. By the 80's until maybe 2020...no one ever mentioned them. Wonder why? Because Meh relative to all other options.

Consider that.

 

[Aceman]

I was rocking the mentioned Flying V a few hours ago through a Mesa and a Hiwatt, BTW. There were enough "balls" there to shake the house.

More later maybe. I might share a few possibly interesting data but have not enough free time for that now...

A Mesa or HiWatt would cause a Ukulele with a single coil to rock the house....

 

[freefrog]

A Mesa or HiWatt would cause a Ukulele with a single coil to rock the house....

Absolutely. It's one of the reasons why I don't use much my guitars with hi-gain pickups. Another reason among others is that I prefer the clarity of lower gain ones. Mileages may vary... ;-)

 

[freefrog]

How did I mis this?!?!?!?!?

I currently have 3 T-Tops. I hate T-tops* but if you like them, great. You do you. I maintain that
1. They are not bad. But they are also not great for anything.
2. They are definitely one of the reasons for the after market pickup business growth
3. They are pickups that want to be a Duncan Jazz, but are not.

My 1979 Les Paul came loaded with T-Tops. I futzed incessantly with the pickups and couldn't get the sound I wanted. I started listening to and playing guitars from guys I knew with aftermarkets and ran into a Distortion loaded Les Paul. I was playing Priest/Maiden/Scorpions/Accept, Quiet Riot/Krokus and such at the time. THAT was the pickup I wanted needed. Got that for the Bridge and it is there today. Sometime in the late 80's early 90's? I LEFT there T-top in it, and am not ever removing it. Why? I like the range from metal screamer to mild. I liked the Richrath tones it got, and it killed for Sweet Child, and generally Bluesy playing. It improved when I went to a 500k neck controls (from a 300k stock). Still there, keeping it. I can Slash all damn day.

That said, my 1973 Tobacco Standard has a PAF and a Super Distortion, and no surprise what that is. A T-Top was NEVER going to give me the Frehley sounds in a significant way.

I have a 79 The Paul that currently has a pair of T-tops. I have had it a year or two now. I play it. And they are "ok" in the most ok sense of the word. I get it. In the 70's Gibson/Norlin put pretty much one pickup in everything. And just like the more extreme 490/498, you could with an appropriate amp and a pedal, play most anything. I will change them eventually, just not at the top of my "must swap" list. But then again, that guitar is really kind of a novelty. I'm not really using it for anything specific, or in general. Kind of like "I'll have some low-fat Vanilla ice cream tonight."

But once DiMarzio and Duncan came out - there were wayyyy better pickups for anything you wanted to do, and even more so today.

This is very different from my 57/57+. I changed those, but I would have been just fine with them for my overall purposes in Irish. But like I said, a PG set with a 9k bridge just had a little more of what I really wanted. I don't hate Gibson pickups on principle. I really like BB1/2/3 combos, Dirty Fingers, and 500k's. and now 57/57+ sets., depending on my purpose.

As for Schenker, his tone was nothing I think anyone was chasing in the 70's (His playing, another story! Kinda like Rhoads). In the 80's he went to DiMarzio, and eventually Dean. I have a Schenker V with Dean Lights out pickups and really like them. Would never swap for T-Tops.

I think Mincer said it best: Vintage pickups from a legacy company - people are gonna be interested. I was there in the late 70's. Nobody was interested. Classic 59 PAFs, SuperD's JB's, and such. T-Tops haven;t been of interest since the mid 70's and they were not of interest then. By the 80's until maybe 2020...no one ever mentioned them. Wonder why? Because Meh relative to all other options.

Consider that.

I was wondering when you'd come to criticize T-Top's... Apparently, it's important to do that in this topic. ;-)

Here is the kind of things that I could answer if I wanted to argue (I won't develop too much, it's just to give the idea).

"Each on his own. Personallly, I maintain that...

1-It's impossible to generalize about T-Tops. They vary as much as a Marshall 2203 differs from a 2205 under the same name of "JCM800".

2-Therefore, some sound inherently better than others - and as any pickup, they shine in some guitars, less in others.

3-With the Duncan touch that we all appreciate here, the SH2 proves the efficiency of the basic recipe.

I discovered the world of guitar pickups with DiMarzio's in a LP copy. One trick ponies. No subtlety. Passing to pat. stamped T-Tops in a Norlin was a relief to me: they were much more versatile precisely because more neutral. BTW, I was also playing Priest/Maiden/Scorpions/Accept /Quiet Riot/Krokus... among others. ;-)

I dislike late Schenker's tone. My benchmark is UFO live / "Strangers in the night".

I don't like either the kinds of tones that I hear from... Ace, sorry about that (albeit I like Kiss: I listen 'em for 50 years). Nor do I like Burstbuckers etc. I have boutique P.A.F. replicas that I find vastly better.

I was also there in the 70's-80s. People weren't really talking about T-Tops : those who disliked 'em mounted other PU's and were promoting their purchases (that's how I've discovered Duncan's or Bill Lawrence's). Those who liked T-Tops played 'em without saying anything because there was nothing to say. Just things to play. And it sounded good.

T-Tops stayed under the radar for decades because guitarists had been brain washed with the idea that T-Tops were junk. Then they rediscovered 'em and realized how many classic tones were encapsulated in these old forgotten things.

Consider this."

But I don't want to argue. Reasons:

-You are you, I am me and I don't see how/why each of us could/should reproach that to the other.

-miles of destructive online critics wouldn't change the relationship that I have with T-Tops in my own rig - and I don't see how anyone could legitimately criticize my gear without having ever played it...

-II've already said that I use all kinds of pickups and appreciate them all for what they are. Even the one trick pony Super Distortion has its merits when I want to play Maiden tunes with Murray's tone (that I don't really appreciate but as a guitarist in various cover bands, I spontaneously tend to mimic the tone when I must cover a tune)... So, to me, it's pointless to criticize a model of pickup in order to promote other ones.

Non limitative list. To be continued or not. It doesn't matter much. Writing all this just avoids me to annoy my family with my guitar while they're watching TV...

 

[Sam SG]

I’m also of the opinion that if they were really that good — and this could apply to PAFs as well — our guitar heroes of days gone by would be using them today instead of the stuff made by Seymour and other pickup makers.

Maybe....maybe not.
As far as real pafs many are still using them...you just arent gonna see a guy drag a $250k LP out on the road but in recordings.
As far as T Tops its a matter of what you are after. If your after" insert fav guitarist" tone in the era of 19xx-19xx. And that was part of the recipe. A T Top may be the missing link. Doesnt matter what they are using now. If you have an ideal in your head of what you want to sound like and a certain pickup or piece of gear was part of the recipe.
If your fav guitarist used say...A Gibson V with T Tops into a cocked thomas organ crybaby into a 2204 with Greenbacks. Thats the recipe.
Now youve duplicated the rig but it dont sound right..must be the pickups ofcourse....yet know one talks about vintage tubes drastic effect on tone.....or the fact that many vintage power tubes could be and were biased near 90% vs New tubes being widely decided limited to 70% disapation......the whole recipe.
A T Top is just the pinch of Oregano in the sauce of a certain recipe.
Not to mention guitars interaction with an amp.
Two rigs....both LPs same pickups....Marshall plexi....4x12 with greenbacks. Rig one has I63 Mullard 12ax7 in V1 and a rolled assortment in V2 V3 and a quad of Mullard xf2 el34s biased hot. RIG 2 has Chinese Shuguang tubes through out the amp biased at 70%. Allot of people dont realize how that stuff effects an amp so they start blaming pickups. The chinese tubes are wayyyyy brighter and thinner and less harmonic. So yea what sounds nice on Rig 1 might sound thin on "identical" Rig2

 

[freefrog]

Nice post from Sam SG. A pleasure to read.

Yes, context is a key here. Makes elements work together or not.

I've at home a cab loaded with EVM12L. Sounds glorious with an Hiwatt circuit. Awfully harsh with any of my EL84 powered amps...

Not sure I would describe T-Tops as "just the pinch of Oregano in the sauce of a certain recipe", though : what I like in young Schenker's tone (or Young / Schenker tones) is still there when I use the same kind of PUs to play early EVH, or with non Marshall rigs, or even for clean tones. I'm talking about clarity. Sizzle. Ability to cut the mix when a higher gain transducer might sound muddy / mushy and get lost among other instruments...
I remember to have played a borrowed Superstrat with Duncan Invader clones on stage : they were almost playing by themselves, gainy, fat and juicy, inspiring... but I couldn't be heard clearly when me and the other guitarist played harmonized parts.

The same Invader clones would have been the proper solution if I had been the only guitarist in a power trio. And I like a X2N in a Strat when I play in memory to Fast Eddie Clarke...

Questions of context. So I still don't get the idea to criticize some pickups by themselves / for what they are...

 

[amdkj]

[Except that ceramic magnets give a stronger flux vs a lower inductance. But that's a detail.]

Yeah, but the thicker magnets that the ceramic T-tops have necessitate longer slug and screw poles, and that extra steel raises the inductance somewhat. It's effectively the same thing DiMarzio do with their 'hidden' extra slugs and more than compensates for the drop in inductance when comparing ceramic to A5.

 

[Chistopher]

Yeah, but the thicker magnets that the ceramic T-tops have necessitate longer slug and screw poles [...]

Why?

 

[Sam SG]

Nice post from Sam SG. A pleasure to read.

Thanks

"just the pinch of Oregano in the sauce of a certain recipe", though :

In my defense...if ya ever tasted my cooking...youd rather be gnawing on the bobbin of a T Top. Lol

 

[freefrog]

Yeah, but the thicker magnets that the ceramic T-tops have necessitate longer slug and screw poles, and that extra steel raises the inductance somewhat. It's effectively the same thing DiMarzio do with their 'hidden' extra slugs and more than compensates for the drop in inductance when comparing ceramic to A5.

Ah yes, you're right... I had a brain fart, sorry for that.

I should have remembered some notes from a few years ago and saying the same thing than you about 79 T-Tops.

Did you measure the inductance on one of these?


If memory serves me, the Gibson T-Type that I've tested had also longer / heavier screw poles... and the kind of highly capacitive braided shielded wire mounted by Gibson on their recent models... and a lower Q factor... IOW, it was like a T-Top slightly revoiced for contemporary gear and ears. ;-)

 

[Aceman]

I was wondering when you'd come to criticize T-Top's... Apparently, it's important to do that in this topic. ;-)

Here is the kind of things that I could answer if I wanted to argue (I won't develop too much, it's just to give the idea).

"Each on his own. Personallly, I maintain that...

1-It's impossible to generalize about T-Tops. They vary as much as a Marshall 2203 differs from a 2205 under the same name of "JCM800".

2-Therefore, some sound inherently better than others - and as any pickup, they shine in some guitars, less in others.

3-With the Duncan touch that we all appreciate here, the SH2 proves the efficiency of the basic recipe.

I discovered the world of guitar pickups with DiMarzio's in a LP copy. One trick ponies. No subtlety. Passing to pat. stamped T-Tops in a Norlin was a relief to me: they were much more versatile precisely because more neutral. BTW, I was also playing Priest/Maiden/Scorpions/Accept /Quiet Riot/Krokus... among others. ;-)

I dislike late Schenker's tone. My benchmark is UFO live / "Strangers in the night".

I don't like either the kinds of tones that I hear from... Ace, sorry about that (albeit I like Kiss: I listen 'em for 50 years). Nor do I like Burstbuckers etc. I have boutique P.A.F. replicas that I find vastly better.

I was also there in the 70's-80s. People weren't really talking about T-Tops : those who disliked 'em mounted other PU's and were promoting their purchases (that's how I've discovered Duncan's or Bill Lawrence's). Those who liked T-Tops played 'em without saying anything because there was nothing to say. Just things to play. And it sounded good.

T-Tops stayed under the radar for decades because guitarists had been brain washed with the idea that T-Tops were junk. Then they rediscovered 'em and realized how many classic tones were encapsulated in these old forgotten things.

Consider this."

But I don't want to argue. Reasons:

-You are you, I am me and I don't see how/why each of us could/should reproach that to the other.

-miles of destructive online critics wouldn't change the relationship that I have with T-Tops in my own rig - and I don't see how anyone could legitimately criticize my gear without having ever played it...

-II've already said that I use all kinds of pickups and appreciate them all for what they are. Even the one trick pony Super Distortion has its merits when I want to play Maiden tunes with Murray's tone (that I don't really appreciate but as a guitarist in various cover bands, I spontaneously tend to mimic the tone when I must cover a tune)... So, to me, it's pointless to criticize a model of pickup in order to promote other ones.

Non limitative list. To be continued or not. It doesn't matter much. Writing all this just avoids me to annoy my family with my guitar while they're watching TV...

Total respect. As I said - they are not bad. I personally am not a fan, but as noted, have one that I'm keeping. What works for you, works.

I think on the whole, you'll agree I'm pretty agnostic regarding most pickups. But yes, the T-Top caused me a special kind of trauma that was hard to get over...

And yes - it is important to criticize all gear; 59's too boomy, Distortion too fizzy, c5 too scooped, and Ceramic too sterile. Otherwise we'd just be going "Hey man, I used this and a dig you it."

A world without conflict is one that does not progress.

 

[amdkj]

Why?

It's literally just to make everything physically fit. The thicker magnet increases the distance between the coil bobbins and the base, so longer screws and slugs are required to reach all the way down to (and slightly through) the baseplate. It's similar to most (not all) Filter'Trons, which also use longer screws, as they have double-thick magnets.
I've heard of the magnet spacers falling out of some T-tops as they aren't big enough to fit just from pressure/friction, though I haven't experienced that myself.

Did you measure the inductance on one of these?

We did, but that was both some years and a whole country ago; I don't have the notes now and I know my memory isn't good enough to take a stab at the figures. I just remember the studio I was attached to then had a 70s LP which people always avoided because it was thought to have 'bad' ceramic pickups, so we looked into replacing them and measured everything to make sure we wouldn't waste money swapping like-for-like. Again, don't recall the numbers, but it's stuck in my head that the inductance was to some degree higher than expected, which is also how I first learnt resistance isn't such a great indicator of output!

 

[freefrog]

But yes, the T-Top caused me a special kind of trauma that was hard to get over...

Believe it or not, I had understood this.

I can see in which configuration such a trauma could happen.

And I've zero problem with the variability of subjective experiences / tastes.

Actually, I wasn't replying only to your post but to what I've perceived as a self-confirming convergence of negative posts, susceptible to hide the complexity of reality...

Yesterday, I've played one of my Superstrats with a Super Distortion and my Flying V with T-Tops. What is clear is that setting a rig for one pickup leads the other to sound like poo and reciprocally. I think this fact alone might weight more than required sometimes in how we perceive transducers. ;-)

 

[Aceman]

Believe it or not, I had understood this.

I can see in which configuration such a trauma could happen.

And I've zero problem with the variability of subjective experiences / tastes.

Agreed! And even I'll say you do you. I make it a point to almost always point out that "I love it, but it isn't for you" or the opposite. Good is what you need - not me.

Actually, I wasn't replying only to your post but to what I've perceived as a self-confirming convergence of negative posts, susceptible to hide the complexity of reality...

But regarding self-confirming posts

When all of the sudden, a pickup that no one sought, suddenly becomes a hot item - isn't that another version of self-confirming internet echo?

T-Tops were available by the dumbstruck, for 30-40 years. More and more pickups are available everyday. Now more than ever; Duncan, DiMarzio, Bareknuckle, Fishman, Fender, Lollar, Gibson, GFS, Dean....

Yet suddenly T-Tops are all the rage and going for $200+ ???

Yesterday, I've played one of my Superstrats with a Super Distortion and my Flying V with T-Tops. What is clear is that setting a rig for one pickup leads the other to sound like poo and reciprocally. I think this fact alone might weight more than required sometimes in how we perceive transducers. ;-)

Totally agree. This can even apply to individual sets - for example, that is commonly cited as a problem with the 490/498 Gibsons. And I would say that applies to my 79 LP. I play bridge almost always. The T-Top neck is mostly for playing "other" stuff than metal.

 

[amdkj]

Yet suddenly T-Tops are all the rage and going for $200+ ???

70s stuff as a whole started to become trendy again about 15 years ago, went back down for a little while, and now has spiked back up. In terms of guitar gear, 70s big headstock Fender guitars and silver-front amps are what all the cool kids use now. And while Fender are the most fashionable, equivalents from Gibson, Gretsch, Vox, Roland, and Marshall aren't far behind. It's no surprise that, just as Wide Ranges went from a forgotten failure to the hottest product on the market a couple of years ago, Gibson's cultural equivalent would also be revived.

Brace yourself, because the 2000s have become fashionable again in a few fields (photography, especially), and I bet in another 5-8 years it'll be all the rage in guitar, too. Expect to read lots of BS about pre-2007 Invaders having magnets made of unicorn horn.

 

[freefrog]

But regarding self-confirming posts

When all of the sudden, a pickup that no one sought, suddenly becomes a hot item - isn't that another version of self-confirming internet echo?

T-Tops were available by the dumbstruck, for 30-40 years. More and more pickups are available everyday. Now more than ever; Duncan, DiMarzio, Bareknuckle, Fishman, Fender, Lollar, Gibson, GFS, Dean....

Yet suddenly T-Tops are all the rage and going for $200+ ???

I don't know if there's more demand than offer, albeit there are probably more guitarists and less remaining T-Tops...

I remember the rage here about... DiMarzio's 45 years ago. Bill Lawrence and Duncan weren't far behind. Everybody wanted aftermarket pickups but mostly because many of us had cheap axes with sub-par pickups. Folks with American guitars weren't changing their PU's so often (at least not here, on the other side of the Planet). They kept 'em and continued to play 'em during the following decades.

Then I've seen younger folks starting to collect T-Tops (or Shaw's) without shooting it out loud around... 2008 (?). I don't clearly remember. I just recall that a young friend of mine was fond of these old things for his PRS guitars in a Dual-Recto. It was making me smile to see him applying the same approach than me almost 30 years sooner, for the same reasons of clarity under hi-gain.

Regarding the increasing number of pickups at disposal on the market: that's the same thing than with pedals and amps, to me. There are thousands of possible choices and myriads of fantastic sounding configurations... but how many are able to synchonize directly with our sensorial and affective memory?
Among various modulation pedals, I've a small collection of Boss CE2 clones... but only my vintage CE2 makes me think "that's it" (the difference with the supposedly identical circuits of clones being not huge but still perceptible on the screen of my frequency analyzer, BTW). I feel the same with old PU's (including my "prehistoric" Duncan's). For me, it's all about cosy warmth of old habits rather than hype and hot products. ;-)

 

[Sam SG]

Im about to stick a T Top in my SG. But not cause its cool or popular. Cause i need more clarity and i allready have one. To be honest its been around for 20+ years and Ive only known what it is about 8yrs. We thought it was a Hamer pickup cause when my father bought a trunk of guitar parts in like 99 or 2000 that what the guy said they came out of. As a matter of fact I stuck the mate to it in a Squier strat cause i needed a " cheap" pickup to fill the hole to sell years ago....none the wiser