Talk box VS Vocoder

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ozzynotwood

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Opinions please, what sounds better? Talk Box's or Vocoder? What are the tonal differences?
 
Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

A vocorder is an electronic device related to synthesizers. You talk or sing into a mic, and while playing an instrument, usually a keyboard. The electronics then apply the tone of the voice to the notes of the instrument. I guess it's a filter that matches the frequency content of the signal from the mic.

A talkbox is a mechanical device - basically a small speaker (usually a high-powered midrange horn "driver") connected to a plastic hose. The sound from the speaker goes up the hose into your mouth, and you filter the sound with the shape of your mouth. You don't talk or sing (unlike the vocorder) you just re-shape the sounds coming from the talkbox.

Since it's a speaker, the talkbox needs some kind of amp to power it. Stompbox talkboxes sometimes have little amps built-in, usually with some overdrive to add harmonics. The mouth-filtering part of the talkbox works better if you start with a dirty, harmonic-rich signal. Other people use a separate amp for the talkbox - when it's time to use it, an A/B switch routes the guitar signal to the talkbox amp instead of the normal backline guitar amp. Ritchie Sambora actually uses a Dual Showman head to drive his Framptone talkbox - it's a wonder his teeth aren't dust!

Some old talkboxes were designed to insert between your normal amp and its speaker, with an A?B switch to decide the routing of the speaker signal. In practice, this wasn't a great method because you ended up with a speaker cable running all the way to the front of the stage and back again. Also, inserting extra (unreliable) cable and switches in the speaker lines from a tube amp is just asking for trouble.

Of course, the talkbox isn't very loud compared to a normal guitar speaker, so you have to mic it up to be heard. The mic simply amplifies the final talkbox sound (also unlike the vocorder, where the mic is an input to help generate sound).

Yes, both devices are used to impart the effect of human speech onto an instrument, but they do it in different ways, and the resulting sounds are different.

Classic examples of talkboxes are:

Peter Frampton - Show Me the Way, Do You Feel Like We Do
Bon Jovi - Living on a Prayer
Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion
Joe Walsh - Rock Mountain Way

I'll be ****ed if I can think of any examples of popular songs with vocorders in them, but I know they are out there. Video Killed the Radio Stars, perhaps?

Most of the crappy hip-hip/pop music out these days sounds like vocorders, because the pitch-correction plug-ins are used so heavy-handedly that they sound like an effect rather than a slight tweak.

If you want to experiment with a DIY talkbox, I have several suitable drivers stashed away in my shop. I went looking for one on eBay a few years ago, and accidentally ended up with four. :smack: PM me if you're interested.
 
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Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

Rich_S said:
A vocorder is an electronic device related to synthesizers. You talk or sing into a mic, and while playing an instrument, usually a keyboard. The electronics then apply the tone of the voice to the notes of the instrument. I guess it's a filter that matches the frequency content of the signal from the mic.

A talkbox is a mechanical device - basically a small speaker (usually a high-powered midrange horn "driver") connected to a plastic hose. The sound from the speaker goes up the hose into your mouth, and you filter the sound with the shape of your mouth. You don't talk or sing (unlike the vocorder) you just re-shape the sounds coming from the talkbox.

Since it's a speaker, the talkbox needs some kind of amp to power it. Stompbox talkboxes sometimes have little amps built-in, usually with some overdrive to add harmonics. The mouth-filtering part of the talkbox works better if you start with a dirty, harmonic-rich signal. Other people use a separate amp for the talkbox - when it's time to use it, an A/B switch routes the guitar signal to the talkbox amp instead of the normal backline guitar amp. Ritchie Sambora actually uses a Dual Showman head to drive his Framptone talkbox - it's a wonder his teeth aren't dust!

Some old talkboxes were designed to insert between your normal amp and its speaker, with an A?B switch to decide the routing of the speaker signal. In practice, this wasn't a great method because you ended up with a speaker cable running all the way to the front of the stage and back again. Also, inserting extra (unreliable) cable and switches in the speaker lines from a tube amp is just asking for trouble.

Of course, the talkbox isn't very loud compared to a normal guitar speaker, so you have to mic it up to be heard. The mic simply amplifies the final talkbox sound (also unlike the vocorder, where the mic is an input to help generate sound).

Yes, both devices are used to impart the effect of human speech onto an instrument, but they do it in different ways, and the resulting sounds are different.

Classic examples of talkboxes are:

Peter Frampton - Show Me the Way, Do You Feel Like We Do
Bon Jovi - Living on a Prayer
Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion
Joe Walsh - Rock Mountain Way

I'll be ****ed if I can think of any examples of popular songs with vocorders in them, but I know they are out there. Video Killed the Radio Stars, perhaps?

Most of the crappy hip-hip/pop music out these days sounds like vocorders, because the pitch-correction plug-ins are used so heavy-handedly that they sound like an effect rather than a slight tweak.

If you want to experiment with a DIY talkbox, I have several suitable drivers stashed away in my shop. I went looking for one on eBay a few years ago, and accidentally ended up with four. :smack: PM me if you're interested.
Click to expand...

That was a great post man, with good talk box examples.

The only vocoder example that jumps into my head is Black Blade by BOC. What about Gary Numan's Cars? Sounds like that has a touch, but both of these are just on the vocals, not the guitars.

That's another big difference. One effect is mostly (always?) used with guitars, and the other is mostly used with vocals.
 
Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

I have a vocoder in my Korg MS2000 (fattest synth I've ever heard) and I've used it to change the pitch of my voice with the keyboard. One of the old, really old MS series had an attached microphone sticking up out of the unit so you could sing into it while making a robot voice melody (or whatever sound) with the keyboard.

I had to plug a mic in, but, it's cool. I sing the notes that I play with the keyboard and the little wavering differences between the pitch of my voice and the pitch of the synth-effected voice makes for a doubling effect as wide as the grand canyon, plus the voice is effected like with a robot, or angels, or a big demon, or whatever synth voice I choose.

An application that is a far cry from making your guitar go "wah-wah-woog-I want-to-****-you" (Frampton) with your mouth.
 
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Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

Thats true, do you know what vocoders they use?
Click to expand...
Not sure but I know at least on the first album and possibly the second they used lots of older synth stuff and lots of MOOG but not sure if the vocoder is related to that
 
Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

Rich_S said:
Classic examples of talkboxes are:

Peter Frampton - Show Me the Way, Do You Feel Like We Do
Bon Jovi - Living on a Prayer
Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion
Joe Walsh - Rock Mountain Way

I'll be ****ed if I can think of any examples of popular songs with vocorders in them, but I know they are out there. Video Killed the Radio Stars, perhaps?

Most of the crappy hip-hip/pop music out these days sounds like vocorders, because the pitch-correction plug-ins are used so heavy-handedly that they sound like an effect rather than a slight tweak.

If you want to experiment with a DIY talkbox, I have several suitable drivers stashed away in my shop. I went looking for one on eBay a few years ago, and accidentally ended up with four. :smack: PM me if you're interested.
Click to expand...

This should jar your memory:

Bruce Haack's The Electric Lucifer (1970) was the first rock album to include the vocoder and was followed several years later by Kraftwerk's Autobahn. Another of the early songs to feature a vocoder was "The Raven" on the 1976 album Tales of Mystery and Imagination by progressive rock band The Alan Parsons Project; the vocoder also was used on later albums such as I Robot. Following Alan Parsons' example, vocoders began to appear in pop music in the late 1970s, for example, on disco recordings. Jeff Lynne of Electric Light Orchestra used the vocoder in several albums such as Time (featuring the Roland VP-330 Plus MkI). ELO songs such as "Mr. Blue Sky" and "Sweet Talking Woman" both from Out of the Blue (1977) use the vocoder extensively. Featured on the album are the EMS Vocoder 2000W MkI, and the EMS Vocoder (-System) 2000 (W or B, MkI or II).

"Mr. Blue Sky" by the Electric Light Orchestra (1977)

Classic example of a singing vocoded voice.
Problems listening to this file? See media help.
Giorgio Moroder made extensive use of the vocoder on the 1975 album Einzelganger and on the 1977 album From Here to Eternity Another example is Pink Floyd's album Animals where the band put the sound of a barking dog through the device. Vocoders are often used to create the sound of a robot talking, as in the Styx song "Mr. Roboto". It was also used for the introduction to the Main Street Electrical Parade at Disneyland.
Vocoders have appeared on pop recordings from time to time ever since, most often simply as a special effect rather than a featured aspect of the work. However, many experimental electronic artists of the New Age music genre often utilize vocoder in a more comprehensive manner in specific works, such as Jean Michel Jarre (on Zoolook, 1984) and Mike Oldfield (on Five Miles Out, 1982). There are also some artists who have made vocoders an essential part of their music, overall or during an extended phase. Examples include the German synthpop group Kraftwerk, Stevie Wonder {"Send One Your Love," "A Seed's a Star"], jazz/fusion keyboardist Herbie Hancock during his late 1970s disco period, the synth-funk groups Midnight Star and The Jonzun Crew during the mid 1980s, French jazz organist Emmanuel Bex, Patrick Cowley's later recordings and more recently, avant-garde pop groups Trans Am, Black Moth Super Rainbow, Daft Punk, ROCKETS, Does It Offend You, Yeah?, The Medic Droid, electronica band The Secret Handshake, the Christian synthpop band Norway, as well as metal bands such as Vandal Known as Myth, At All Cost, Boots With Spurs and Cynic, electronica/progressive bands I See Stars and Breathe Carolina, and most recently Japanese electronica/dance band m.o.v.e (usually the vocoder was operated by the producer t-kimura).
Madonna often uses Vocoders for her albums and concerts including her 2001 Drowned World Tour, 2004 Re-Invention Tour, 2006 Confessions Tour, and her Sticky & Sweet Tour.
Anathema uses a vocoder for singer Vincent Cavanagh in the song Closer from the A Natural Disaster (2003) album, even on concerts.
Swedish gothic metal band Tiamat used a vocoder for the chorus of the song Angel Holograms on the Judas Christ (2002) album.
The Japanese Avant-garde Black Metal band Sigh used a vocoder on their 2001 album Imaginary Sonicscape.
Geoff Downes, keyboardist for The Buggles, Yes, and Asia, has used the vocoder for such notable tunes as Tempus Fugit, from Yes' album Drama.
The American-Armenian alternative band System of a Down used a vocoder for their live 2005-2006 shows.
Other users of the vocoder include Prince, George Clinton, the late Roger Troutman, Teddy Riley, Rihanna, DeVante Swing, Imogen Heap, T-Pain, the electro-freestyle group Meat Biscuit, Kanye West and Black Moth Super Rainbow.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarre_Love_Triangle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Monday_(New_Order_song)
 
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Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

Black Blade! Great call PV!!!!!

for my money, nothing beats the expressiveness of the talk box. I see it like this: A Vocode adds synth qualities to a voice, whereas a talk box adds vocal qualities to a guitar.

Vocal qualities to the guitar is definitely the more expressive.

Talk Box tune: Scorpions, The Zoo.
 
Re: Talk box VS Vocoder

Aceman said:
Black Blade! Great call PV!!!!!

for my money, nothing beats the expressiveness of the talk box. I see it like this: A Vocode adds synth qualities to a voice, whereas a talk box adds vocal qualities to a guitar.

Vocal qualities to the guitar is definitely the more expressive.

Talk Box tune: Scorpions, The Zoo.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say one is more expressive than the other, having used both. Both have their place.
 
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