The best modeler is soon getting even better

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

I think another plus for high-end modeler companies not working the computer angle is that they don't get sucked into providing support for computers that they didn't have anything to do with. That could drain away your resources and profitability in a hurry, I imagine. Also, if I were taking a modeler to a gig or recording session, I'd rather take a rackmount unit any day of the week, over a PC or laptop.

 

[uOpt]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

Woah scorch.

You were really reading too fast.

If anything there are three philosophies here:

• 1 - Simulator running on a PC
• 2 - Simulator running in a 19" thing
• 3 - Real amp
• 4 - Theoretically there's also the real amp but into speaker simulator and DI way but very few people do that

Now, #2 might use a DSP and #1 might use a real CPU but it really doesn't matter for the practical things. DSP or CPU is not the point. #1 isn't good to drag around to gigs but #2 also isn't quite good if that complex piece of electronics breaks. At least with #1 you can just use a random other PC. #3 is lugging stuff around which many don't like anymore.

In detail:

Bravo! That's all I'm saying. But the Axe II is a dedicated digital signal processor. It doesn't do emails, or 3D graphics, or spreadsheets of all your investments, or sexting your girlfriend (with attached picture of yer tool), or a DAW with the entire New York Philharmonic playing on separate channels.

Its not a computer in the general sense. That is my point. I was always intrigued by the promise of modeling but none delivered. I've done the Boss, Line 6, Avid trip...they weren't there. The Axe II is. And it's due to the considerable coding skills of Cliff Chase. The reason he won't release his code for general computer use is it will get ripped-off. Many people on the Fractal forum have asked for it. He's not going to do it.

That's not going to do it for real. It isn't that much more work to disassemble something running on an embedded computer.

I'm just a techie that loves good tube tone. Been chasing it all my adult life. I've finally caught up with it. I'm glad it happened while I'm alive. It's permanently cured me of amp and pedal GAS.

But didn't you just say that the newest software *really* nails it?

What about those who said the last version *really* nailed it?

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

I'm going to take this thread on a brief sideways turn into the world of synthesizers. Please, bear with me.

Some time in the late Eighties or early Nineties, there was a consensus that analogue sounds and subtractive programming techniques were desirable but uneconomical to manufacture. Instead, we were offered Sample + Synthesis technology. Samples of raw waveforms from classic analogue synthesizers, processed through digitally controlled filter and amplitude envelopes, treated with a little chorus, delay and reverb. Hey, presto. "Retro" synth in a handy, reliable package.

After a while, you can convince yourself that the S+S recreation is as good as the real thing. Certainly, a close imitation can evoke the same emotional response as the real thing used to. Then, you get to see a video recording of a band performing at their own induction into The Rock 'N' Roll Hall Of Fame, using real Sequential Prophet V synthesizers. You recognise the sound and power of the real thing immediately. Any illusions that the S+S imitation was just as good are immediately shattered.

For me, digital modelling of guitar amplification evokes the same feeling.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

I'm going to take this thread on a brief sideways turn into the world of synthesizers. Please, bear with me.

Some time in the late Eighties or early Nineties, there was a consensus that analogue sounds and subtractive programming techniques were desirable but uneconomical to manufacture. Instead, we were offered Sample + Synthesis technology. Samples of raw waveforms from classic analogue synthesizers, processed through digitally controlled filter and amplitude envelopes, treated with a little chorus, delay and reverb. Hey, presto. "Retro" synth in a handy, reliable package.

After a while, you can convince yourself that the S+S recreation is as good as the real thing. Certainly, a close imitation can evoke the same emotional response as the real thing used to. Then, you get to see a video recording of a band performing at their own induction into The Rock 'N' Roll Hall Of Fame, using real Sequential Prophet V synthesizers. You recognise the sound and power of the real thing immediately. Any illusions that the S+S imitation was just as good are immediately shattered.

For me, digital modelling of guitar amplification evokes the same feeling.

Agree 100%.......and very well explained. I recorded an album in the late 80's when the studio introduced such "alternatives" to us and while we preferred the "real" sounds we produced in studio we did at times use samples where convenient. We did everything in the few areas that we did use sampling to cultivate and duplicate as accurate a sound as possible.....but all these years later when listening to that album I can hear and feel the difference. We recorded and even mixed using analog and this might even highlight more the difference between samples and the real thing. Of course.....the guys in the studios often swear by sampling and in their minds, sampling is the real thing!

 

[dominus]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

I'm going to take this thread on a brief sideways turn into the world of synthesizers. Please, bear with me.

Some time in the late Eighties or early Nineties, there was a consensus that analogue sounds and subtractive programming techniques were desirable but uneconomical to manufacture. Instead, we were offered Sample + Synthesis technology. Samples of raw waveforms from classic analogue synthesizers, processed through digitally controlled filter and amplitude envelopes, treated with a little chorus, delay and reverb. Hey, presto. "Retro" synth in a handy, reliable package.

After a while, you can convince yourself that the S+S recreation is as good as the real thing. Certainly, a close imitation can evoke the same emotional response as the real thing used to. Then, you get to see a video recording of a band performing at their own induction into The Rock 'N' Roll Hall Of Fame, using real Sequential Prophet V synthesizers. You recognise the sound and power of the real thing immediately. Any illusions that the S+S imitation was just as good are immediately shattered.

For me, digital modelling of guitar amplification evokes the same feeling.

So you believe that technology hasn't advanced enough in the last 10-20 years?

And you're watching a video recording of synths and it sounds better than something you're in the room with?

Here's my old setup:

Sold all that stuff off in 2003/2004 and went with software.

 

[everdrone]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

axefx2 is also really cool, cause its hard to mic amps in live settings with lots of loud instruments, and they have a direct out that is not just an equalizer curve

 

[uOpt]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

axefx2 is also really cool, cause its hard to mic amps in live settings with lots of loud instruments, and they have a direct out that is not just an equalizer curve

Yeah but another argument is loss of value.

If I buy a used Shiva, a random cabinet with G12-65s and a SM57 now I can sell it close to the original price 5 years from now. Regardless of how good the Axe FX 2 is now, they'll make more attractive new units putting pressure on used older ones. And that is just in case that nothing in those complicated electronics breaks that voids the whole investment.

Won't matter much who are constantly using the equipment, especially if they earn income with it. For those of us who go through periods of playing less this can work out to a whole lot of $$$ per hour of playing.

 

[dominus]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

Yeah but another argument is loss of value.

If I buy a used Shiva, a random cabinet with G12-65s and a SM57 now I can sell it close to the original price 5 years from now. Regardless of how good the Axe FX 2 is now, they'll make more attractive new units putting pressure on used older ones. And that is just in case that nothing in those complicated electronics breaks that voids the whole investment.

Won't matter much who are constantly using the equipment, especially if they earn income with it. For those of us who go through periods of playing less this can work out to a whole lot of $$$ per hour of playing.

How about buying a *new* Shiva and making the same argument? Or would it lose some of the value being used in 5 years?

 

[uOpt]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

How about buying a *new* Shiva and making the same argument? Or would it lose some of the value being used in 5 years?

Fair enough point. You have to be willing to buy used with no warranty to "play for free".

However, what about getting a vintage Marshall which has a good chance of actually increasing in value?

 

[dominus]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

Fair enough point. You have to be willing to buy used with no warranty to "play for free".

However, what about getting a vintage Marshall which has a good chance of actually increasing in value?

That's a bit tougher to argue with, but you have to remember.. most mass produced things aren't meant to increase in value. I'm willing to bet that a mint condition 1972 Pinto is worth far less than a mint condition 1972 Mustang, but back in 1972 they weren't too far from each other in price.

I'd still be more inclined to think - what value would you be getting from it when you bought it and used it? A vintage Marshall to me wouldn't be worth anything. It's not the sound that I'd be looking for. An original 5150 would get much more usage, but wouldn't cost as much.

If you bought both the vintage Marshall and the Axe FX at the same time for the same price, used the Marshall once in a while but used the Axe FX all the time, and then sold each one two years later - which one was worth more to you?

(Along those lines - I don't buy a car based on what I plan to sell it for. I buy it for the value it's going to be to me over the course of ownership. Gas mileage, cargo space, looks, etc.)

 

[LtKojak]

Re: The best modeler is soon getting even better

Hi Dominus!

I see from the picture you had a General Music S2. I didn't think anybody would even know 'bout'em outside Europe.

For the record, I own the rack version and use it all the time, specially to record bass parts. This machine have some bass patches that are simply to die for!

Nice picture, very '90s.

HTH,